To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

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Garrett
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Re: To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

Post by Garrett » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:20 pm

medphys wrote:Unfortunately, my suppressor is 2" and the Bower's griptastic covers only come in puke brown in the 2" version.
No worries. I'll call Tom and see if he will do a special run of 2" pink covers just for you. :lol:

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medphys
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Re: To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

Post by medphys » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:03 pm

Garrett wrote:
medphys wrote:Unfortunately, my suppressor is 2" and the Bower's griptastic covers only come in puke brown in the 2" version.
No worries. I'll call Tom and see if he will do a special run of 2" pink covers just for you. :lol:
Cool. It'll match my new shooting gloves.

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Re: To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

Post by sillycon » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:00 pm

I haven't tried batting gloves; I've mostly been using mechanics gloves and other work-type gloves that are intended for you to touch hot things momentarily without burns.

Goatskin TIG gloves could be a decent choice as well, though if you hang on too long you'll get a good zing through the leather. :)

Personally, I've found that half-finger gloves are preferable; I can still grip enough to tighten the can, while still keeping the dexterity of my fingertips. As long as your fast the heat resistance of the material doesn't seem to be too much of an issue.
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Garrett
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Re: To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

Post by Garrett » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:51 pm

sillycon wrote:Goatskin TIG gloves could be a decent choice as well, though if you hang on too long you'll get a good zing through the leather. :)

Personally, I've found that half-finger gloves are preferable; I can still grip enough to tighten the can, while still keeping the dexterity of my fingertips. As long as your fast the heat resistance of the material doesn't seem to be too much of an issue.
It's going to depend on whether you just need to tighten a hot can, or if you need to hang on to the can the whole time. Some thin mechanics or TIG gloves work great for occasionally tightening, while still giving enough feeling and dexterity to do mag changes, etc.

If you have a MAC can with coarse MAC threads, you really need to hold on to the can the whole time and physically keep it from unscrewing. And it will get hot fast. TIG gloves won't cut it. You would want the heavier stick welding gloves.

Even when shooting a few mags of .22 through the can, it gets too hot to comfortably hold in under two mags. Notice my hand placement during the .22 stage (fast-forward to about 2:30 for the .22 stage). After two mags, it got too hot to comfortably hold any more.


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Re: To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

Post by sillycon » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:46 pm

Oh, completely agreed -- if you're actually hanging on to the can it's a VERY different ballgame. The only time I do that is on the factory MAC uppers, and I've got an original Nomex cover for my SIONICS-style 2-stage -- I don't think it would be shootable without it even with MIG/stick gloves! :shock:
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Garrett
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Re: To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

Post by Garrett » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:24 pm

I'm starting to rethink things on whether or not to run suppressed. In working up some loads for another gun, I noticed that it had a preference to shoot better with one can, while shooting less well with another. It got me wondering how this would translate to other guns. I don't shoot for groups with the subguns all that often, and I'm now wondering if it's not a bad practice from time to time, as things can change.

I tested this a couple of weeks ago with the M11/9 and the Autowerkes upper that I've been using since the mid-2000s. I shot a group with a bare muzzle. Then I tried the three cans I have that are appropriate for 9mm. I found all of them produced significantly larger groups than I had gotten when shooting with no can. I know it is not just a function of the cans by themselves causing the problem, as they had produced good groups from another gun on that same day. I have been able to shoot acceptable groups with the M11 and some of these cans in the past. So I am wonder what may have changed.

Image

It was suggested the trunnion welds may have broken on the upper receiver, and the extra weight of a can may exaggerate the issue. (In an M11, you would actually get cracking in the sheet metal, just behind the trunnion, but the result would be the same.) A quick check revealed no issues with the upper, though.

But the issue had me wondering how this would run with different uppers. In addition to the Autowerkes upper, I've got a Lage MAX-11 and the SWD upper that originally came with the gun. The SWD upper spent years in the parts bin, and has recently been put to use with a Lage .22 conversion. The barrel has had very little 9mm shot through it.

As can be seen, the results are... interesting.

Both uppers gave "decent" groups with no suppressor. And the groups were anywhere from slightly better to totally horrible depending on which can was used. The SWD upper gave horrible results with the Trident-9, but that same can gave the best results on the Lage upper.

Image

The SWD upper has given acceptable accuracy with the .22 conversion... I think. I may need to see how it groups from the bench now as well. It may have been there was some buildup on the end of the 9mm barrel from shooting .22s through it. This could certainly contribute to poor accuracy. Also, I noted when tightening the cans in place, the barrel can turn slightly in the upper receiver. These may be cause for some of the accuracy issues with this upper.

I have considered carbon could have built up to the point it is starting to rub the bullets, causing issues. But one of the cans is relatively new, and another is a .45 can. For it to have carbon fouling to the extent it starts affecting bullet trajectory would be very evident visually. The .45 can is probably due for a cleaning. I may have to do some before and after groups and see if anything changes.

Until I can get this sorted out, I'm leaning toward just running unsuppressed in competition.

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Re: To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

Post by todd » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:28 pm

I've had the same issues with my uzi + suppressor which is why I prefer to shoot unsuppressed.

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Garrett
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Re: To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

Post by Garrett » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:09 pm

If a barrel produces good groups with no can, one can assume the crown is good. It's possible the thread job could cause an issue. But if the crown is good, I'm not sure what issue the threading could cause, outside of a baffle strike. I'm relatively certain it's not that, as a misalignment bad enough to cause a 9mm to strike a .45 baffle would have caused a major problem with a 9mm can.

There is a thread at http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=807908, discussing copper fouling in the bore causing poor suppressor accuracy. I wonder if I just need to clean my barrels better.

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Re: To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

Post by sillycon » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:58 pm

You're also changing your barrel harmonics, and that can have wild impacts on accuracy.

Back when I "dabbled" in more precise disciplines of shooting, you'd come across all sorts of bizarre happenings with regard to accuracy.

I found instances you had two loads driving the same bullet, and shooting one powder before the other would cause accuracy shifts.

E.g. a 2520 load shot on a clean bore (or a bore fouled with 2520) might group .25moa, but the first 10-15 rounds of 2520 after having run TAC down the bore would group at 1.5moa.

You'd find the same thing when following one bullet with another as well.

Sometimes you find that you have to rub your belly and pat your head for every third pull of the press handle in order to make your loads run true.

Accuracy is an odd beast. :)
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medphys
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Re: To suppress or not to suppress. What do you say and why?

Post by medphys » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:37 pm

Today was the first time I had a chance to run suppressed in a match. I think I shall continue ;)

Sorry, but I can't embed from my phone.

http://youtu.be/NZWjE_lmOJ4

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