Let's talk Bumpfire

Everything from training tips to firearm discussion for competitors. What have you learned that you can share and what do you want to know?
Paul Winters
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Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by Paul Winters » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:12 pm

Just got back from the machinegun shoot in Hilham TN, Andrew Asnip, Tony May, and were the line ROs for the match which ran from Thursday through Sunday. On the shooting line were a crew from Fostech Outdoors demonstrating their bumpfire stocks. Color me very impressed! I watched these stocks run and run and run with amazing control and reliability. They had the Bumpski which is for AKs, the
AA2 which runs great with a ruger 10/22, and the defendAR-15 which is for ARs. They had one which ran with a 9mm upper. With all the talk about semi and 22 classes, I really see a bumpfire class for these devices as a possability. Think about it...an Ar with a 9mm upper receiver and one of these stocks that allow full auto reliability for probably around a grand. They could do singles, doubles, triples and heavy bursts on demand. With these devices a shooter could play with heavy steel and knock it down.

I have asked them to jump in on this website and share videos and other info. I also talked to them about showing up at the creek and giving people a look see. I am not selling anything for them, but after a weekend of watching cases of ammo being dumped, even with new shooters who were able to run them with very little instruction, I have changed my view of these products. I think this is a discussion we should have when talking about other classes. Their web site is www.Fostechoutdoors.com.

Also, this range in TN is a great place to grow and visit. I am in discussions with the range owner about a subgun match during their next shoot in May. They are planning to also have a 900 yard range up a running for this next match. Put this on your calender for May and I will provide more info when everything is formalized.

These things were very impressive.

Paul : -)#

Ulwembu
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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by Ulwembu » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:25 pm

The only issue I see with these stocks is that it's easy for them to shoot of single taps and the rules for subgun say the selector has to be on full auto. As you say: it's easy for them to control their fire. Easier then most full auto's.

For the rest: it would be an simple step for newbies to get into the game ;)

Edit: Well, just talked to you and wasn't realizing you were talking about a seperate class for them ;) Hell, I would play with them if they get their own class/match at KCR :P

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medphys
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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by medphys » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:50 pm

Ulwembu wrote:The only issue I see with these stocks is that it's easy for them to shoot of single taps and the rules for subgun say the selector has to be on full auto. As you say: it's easy for them to control their fire. Easier then most full auto's.

For the rest: it would be an simple step for newbies to get into the game ;)
I suspect they would be in their own class so I say let them play!

It's also another reason to take another look at what we name our matches.

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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by Ulwembu » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:52 pm

I don't see why a name change would be in order. Just call it the carbine bump class ;)

Anyway, for the lazy people: here's the link to their website (straight to the AR part): http://fostechoutdoors.com/index.php?l= ... etail&p=12

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todd
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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by todd » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:11 pm

We've tossed this idea around here a bit and the consensus was that if the bumpfire device was safe then it'd be awesome to try it out in competition. The slide fire and other devices seem pretty cool but the question is how safe is it in the hands of a absolute new shooter? I think the addition could be good for the sport if there was enough people with them willing to compete and a proof of concept match could be held to test any possible issues that might arise.

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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by AndrewA » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:50 am

From what I saw and experienced this weekend, they are as safe as any other firearm. For newbies, it takes practice to be able to properly control burst length. You have to keep proper tension on both your trigger finger and your left forearm to continue firing. If either is not correct, it stops shooting.

The way we set up our courses, you cannot be competitive without the ability to fire a burst. Heavy steel just will not go down without multiple hits in quick succession as we've all found out! And it is much too slow to engage a close array of multiple targets one at a time than as a group.

We discussed allowing a couple of experienced shooters to run a test at KCR to see how it goes. I think that would be interesting to say the least. I would be very interested to see how well an experienced shooter could run our course with this type of setup.

Currently, the entry level price point for a subgun competition is over $4000 (MAC with Lage, Spitfire, Reising, etc). One of these bump stocks and a 9mm AR-15 brings it down closer to $1200-1500. There are a LOT more folks who can afford to get involved at that price level than at over $4000.

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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by ktwm » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:35 pm

Why have a separate class? Just put them in with the closed bolts (since they are generally closed bolts). It does take more skill to consistently bumpfire, but if anything, that is a slight disadvantage to the bump stocks.

Maybe if you start getting large numbers of people using the bump stocks, then think about a separate class. But for now, the number of bump fire competitors would be low, so just let them in the normal class, at least temporarily. ROF is low, but there are plenty of subguns with a low ROF that can also pull singles easily.

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todd
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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by todd » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:57 pm

ktwm wrote:Why have a separate class? Just put them in with the closed bolts (since they are generally closed bolts). It does take more skill to consistently bumpfire, but if anything, that is a slight disadvantage to the bump stocks.

Maybe if you start getting large numbers of people using the bump stocks, then think about a separate class. But for now, the number of bump fire competitors would be low, so just let them in the normal class, at least temporarily. ROF is low, but there are plenty of subguns with a low ROF that can also pull singles easily.
A valid point but once the number of competitors increases with them you need to have apples to apples. A bump fire is not the same as a semi auto in closed bolt under any circumstances. I suspect a bumpfire would get its ass kicked all day long by a semi shooter on the same course of fire. Who would want to show up knowing they were at a disadvantage ?

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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by Ulwembu » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:08 am

Sounds to me that he's talking about putting them in close bolt full auto class. In that case you also have an advantage with the bumpfre as you can easily squeeze off singles by pulling the gun in your shoulder and thus not bumpfire. Except for the heavy set targets, I'm pretty sure you could get the single plates faster then with a gun set at fa.

In my mind they should get their own class.

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todd
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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by todd » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:08 am

I think the max-31 in closed bolt would run all over them...we'll see if richard + chris can slap the rest of us around at KCR with them this year :)

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medphys
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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by medphys » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:41 pm

Regarding classes- another and perhaps simpler method could be to just have bumpfire and semi-auto shooters shoot "fun runs" until the numbers grow sufficiently to have them require their own class. We can still record the times, they just wouldn't count for score.

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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by Ulwembu » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:34 am

Hmmm... So you're saying that people should travel to a match to not set a score? I doubt a lot will ever show up then.

Paul Winters
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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by Paul Winters » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:26 am

I can see a bumpfire class, if there is enough competitors. Until they run a course and the scores calculated, it is hard to guess where they fit. For the Knob Creek National Match, as long as the class 3 shooters are filling the squads, I don't see other classes there. Other matches, maybe. This is new and whether it takes off or not, time will tell. If it does, I think I will consider picking one up as I can take my 9mm upper and put it in an semi AR and play with a bumpfire stock. I see a lot of potential, especially for new shooters wanting to play, but not having the budget to go class 3. Maybe there will be bumpfire vendors at the Creek this time and we can all take a gander.

Paul : -)#

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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by ktwm » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:06 pm

todd wrote:...
A valid point but once the number of competitors increases with them you need to have apples to apples....
CORRECT, And that is the time to start a new class....when the need arises, not before. That's what I am getting at.

There is no need to create a new class until the number of competitors increases. In fact, you can plan to create a new class, only if the number of bump-firers is at a certain level......This is kind of what happens at the local matches when only a few people shoot one class (like .22 subgun). They get mixed in with another class, but if there is enough of them, they get grouped together.
Last edited by ktwm on Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Let's talk Bumpfire

Post by ktwm » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:12 pm

Ulwembu wrote:Sounds to me that he's talking about putting them in close bolt full auto class. In that case you also have an advantage with the bumpfre as you can easily squeeze off singles by pulling the gun in your shoulder and thus not bumpfire. ....
That is what I am suggesting, putting them in with the closed bolt full autos.

bump-fire's may have an advantage against fast ROF guns, but not slow ROF guns (do you think we should seperate by ROF so everything is even?) But bumpfires will have a disadvantage in consistant full-auto fire. It's not a simple push-button operation to get a string. you have to learn how to get it to fire well.

I guess the simplest would be to just make a semi-auto class, and put them there Since legally they are semi-auto....but the idea is to treat them like an entry-level full auto, so it would be good to treat them in the match like a full auto.


One of the big things that pulled me to subgun matches is the lack of regulation....got a can, put it on. got a 100 round drum, use it. Subguns are trully the Unlimited class of firearms, and I am for allowing any new technology into this unlimited class.


Maybe there just needs to be an open class at Knob creek....closed bolt, open bolt, optics, irons, bumpfire, semi-auto,...doesn't matter.....Fastest time wins. This would not even need to be another run. It could just be a combination score based on all the runs, even the fun runs. Then the bump-firers could do a fun run and still be in the running for a "prize"

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