Mac-10 + Micro Uzi @ 30 yards... just as accurate

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todd
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Mac-10 + Micro Uzi @ 30 yards... just as accurate

Post by todd » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:08 am

[GVideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8972&hl=en[/GVideo]

Steming from previous discussion on what the max range should be for matchs we did this video test. The Mac-10 belongs to someone other than the shooter and these were the first shots he took from the gun.

The only gun smaller than the Mac is the Micro Uzi which we were fortunate enough to have one at the event and it too was just as accurate. It comes down to operator ability not firearm limitations. I would have to say these guns are just as viable as any other gun at 30-50 yrds in semi. At our next match when I get more time I'll put the plate up going the longest distance possible (maybe 45 yrds corner to corner) and see what we can do with the 9mm M11.

I really think those of you who feel the selector switch needs to stay in full auto are selling yourself short and only experiencing half of your firearms potential. A few shots like the one pictured in the video on one stage during a match should be a welcomed addiiton in my mind.

This Mac does have some sort of extension on it which the owner said was all show and minimal functionality. The Micro does also has a suppressor on it which extends the length. I'll try to get some video of shots without the extension and suppressor on next month.

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Post by SubGunFan » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:25 am

.

todd:

Thanks for the MAC vs Micro UZI accuracy test video. However, you left out a few details.....

1. How big was the target?

2. The MAC was iron sights and the Micro UZI had optics.

3. Have the MAC shooter fire 10rds at the target quickly and count the hits. Both standing and kneeling. Same for the Micro UZI.

Comment: I agree the original MAC stock is poor for accurate fire.

.

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Using the selector...

Post by SubGunFan » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:38 am

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I feel that if the use of selectors are allowed then their use must be limited to certain targets (arrays) as stated in the COF. If you give full judgement to the shooter for the whole stage, then I feel Gamers will find it more beneficial to use more "semi" than "full" on most stages.

I would not mind allowing the use of selectors, but their use must be VERY LIMITED. And stage designers need to remember that not all SMGs have selectors, and not put shoot&no-shoot arrays at the longer ranges....

.

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Post by todd » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:39 am

Target was 8"-10" I'll measure it next time I am up there.We call them "Lollipops" and they are just solid steel circles. We were running very short on time so the test was rushed. I'll break out an assortment of targets next time in both size and distance and see what we can do.

I think the bottom line is optics or irons shouldn't matter since if the sights are on the bullet will go where the shooter puts it. Both guns are capable of those shots in semi. I would like to see where the actual limits are of the firearm though. At what point do we say "this is not a reasonable test of skill for the average competitor"?

To answer that I think we need to take the most unstable platform possible and see what we can do with it and then put it in the hands of a new shooter and see what they can do with it and split the difference somewhere in between.

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Re: Using the selector...

Post by todd » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:41 am

SubGunFan wrote:.

I feel that if the use of selectors are allowed then their use must be limited to certain targets (arrays) as stated in the COF. If you give full judgement to the shooter for the whole stage, then I feel Gamers will find it more beneficial to use more "semi" than "full" on most stages.

I would not mind allowing the use of selectors, but their use must be VERY LIMITED. And stage designers need to remember that not all SMGs have selectors, and not put shoot&no-shoot arrays at the longer ranges....

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That is precisly why I said we designate only specific targets as select option targets. You say "these 4 targets and only these 4 can be shot in semi if you feel the need". Even at a short distance with a very small target you might want to go semi. like a little head sized behind a big no shoot. The operator needs to know when that option is best for them.

As a designer the flip side of that is just like what Paul Winters said about the no shoots in a array of shoots drawing the eye of the competior like a magnet... if you designate 4 targets select fire some people will go slect fire on all of them where as some other shooters might realize that 2 of the targets do not require that type of precision and keep it on auto

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Post by Paul Winters » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:00 pm

Ya gotta think carefully about semi in a full auto match. I agree on a semi class, but what about those who do not have a selector? Allowing a shooter to touch his/her selector during a match creates a wild card effect. How to deal with a shooter who doesn't put the selector back on full and you only catch it many targets later and what if he changes it to full later and you don't catch it? What about a shooter who's gun double taps and the selector is on semi when it is allowed. The only way I think this may work is like weak handed shooting. Put it at the end of the course and then the after effects don't matter.

Paul : -)#

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Post by VegasSMG » Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:27 pm

I think a few targets limited to distant semi auto engagement, or shooter's choice is fine and I'm for that. I think we can agree that some subguns may not need to have the happy switch manipulated due to their ability to deliver singles, but it's a great option for buzz gunners and they're at a disadvantage on small, distant targets. I've mentioned we sometimes have a clay bird set at maybe 20-25 yards as a bonus target. It's usually worth +5 and some people waste much more time than that trying to pick up the bonus. Oh, and this is always the last target on the stage so there wouldn't be an issue with the selector not being put back on full. That would be a perfect time to throw our switches on semi, but does it take away some of the full auto skills?

Todd, if you'll think back to when you were out here, you know that we're fortunate enough to have almost unlimited range distance. You weren't taken to the best places we have to shoot, as we only used the most convenient spot for what I felt would serve the group's needs. I've been able to observe first hand the limits of a subgun's range and accuracy. Yes, they're very useful as carbines rather than the short range, full auto pistol that many consider them to be. I haven't missed out on using the semi auto setting! I've been able to really test the limits of pistol caliber ammo and the results are surprising if you've never taken the time to make shots at a hundred or two hundred yards and further. I also consider suppressor use more enjoyable in semi mode.

I think the point SubGunFan is trying to make is he doesn't want to see subgun matches evolving, (or degrading), into semi auto matches. If you take an objective look at things right now, I believe you'll agree that the move in weapon accessories and course design favor slow firing guns. Almost everyone wants a gun they can pull easy singles with and there's nothing wrong with that. But at what point will a semi auto carbine, (say a semi Uzi or AR15/9mm), be able to score almost as well as a subgun in a full auto match? I'd have to say right now! There's a place for semi auto carbine matches, but I don't believe it's mixed with subguns matches.

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Post by todd » Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:43 pm

You both raise very good points. I agree that the issue of selecting to semi and then forgetting to select back is an issue and may cause more trouble than it is worth in regards to RO duties. It works with our group here since we are on the honor system and it's more a friendly match than anything else. You also have a group of people behind you heckling you or cheering you on and they point out every mistake to keep you honest.

Perhaps as VegasSMG said for practicality sake it would be best reserved for the final shots on a course of fire if used at all. I think it would work out well if it was the final shot or shots with shooter option. Then again the amount of whining for somebody to screw the pooch on the final shot would be unreal... hehehe..

I can see the validity of running a course of 40+ targets and then having 1-3 accuracy shots at the end. Even a 4" or 6" plate at 20 yrds on the shoulder of a no shoot would be great. It's a shot anyone can make if they take their time or switch to semi and follow through.

VegasSMG the farthest I have shot with my subguns is 120 yards or so. I hit some huge ass gong with my full size at 120 yards and nailed a 6" auto popepr at 90 yards with my mini in 3-4 shots. How far have you taken your guns out to? I plan to get the Uzi's out to 200 yrds in 2007.

As far as a competitions being flavored toward single shot guns I agree and I don't like it. Single shots only serve to prove accuracy and trigger control. Too much of anything isn't good which is why I am a huge proponent of using props and setups which push the competitors into full fire.

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Post by SubGunFan » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:26 pm

todd wrote:
As far as a competitions being flavored toward single shot guns I agree and I don't like it. Single shots only serve to prove accuracy and trigger control. Too much of anything isn't good which is why I am a huge proponent of using props and setups which push the competitors into full fire.
There might still be a chance to bring you over to the "Dark Side".... :)

However, placing shoot targets on the shoulders of no-shoots is not the way to promote full-auto firing. And placing 2 or 3 RED steel targets in a group of shoot steel targets is not to draw the shooter's attention to the RED ones, it is to prevent hosing the array.

While I am not saying no-shoots don't have their place, but the liberal use of them does put more semi-auto style shooting in a full-auto SMG match. I am also not saying all stages should be "hosefests" either.

todd...... The Dark Side is waiting for you....... It is your destiny.....

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Post by L34A1 » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:19 pm

SubGunFan wrote:
todd wrote:
As far as a competitions being flavored toward single shot guns I agree and I don't like it. Single shots only serve to prove accuracy and trigger control. Too much of anything isn't good which is why I am a huge proponent of using props and setups which push the competitors into full fire.
However, placing shoot targets on the shoulders of no-shoots is not the way to promote full-auto firing. And placing 2 or 3 RED steel targets in a group of shoot steel targets is not to draw the shooter's attention to the RED ones, it is to prevent hosing the array.

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I would have to disagree SubGunFan. Placing liberal amounts of no-shoots in a COF does not promote semi auto firing; it promotes trigger control and a degree of discipline on the operator’s part. :) Of course I will be more than happy to shoot a COF with no red or hostage targets period. This being the proverbial walk in the park.
"People always equate success with the weapons themselves rather than with training and individual initiative, which are really the bottom line"

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Post by VegasSMG » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:37 pm

With four bays at each of your matches ,you guys need to have, no, must have, at least one stage at some point where there are no hostages and EVERYBODY dies! Yep, a hosefest!

We do it on occasion and I think this Sunday will be one of those days. It's a big hit with everyone, the shooters as well as the spectators. No reloads, no skill, no brains, just kill 'em all. Reactive targets are a must.

Sometimes we lose sight that we're supposed to be having fun. This is a great way for everyone let off some steam and laugh. I think you may enjoy it more than you suspect. It doesn't need to be complicated and ATAS to be fun.

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Post by todd » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:40 pm

SubGunFan wrote:
There might still be a chance to bring you over to the "Dark Side".... :)

However, placing shoot targets on the shoulders of no-shoots is not the way to promote full-auto firing. And placing 2 or 3 RED steel targets in a group of shoot steel targets is not to draw the shooter's attention to the RED ones, it is to prevent hosing the array.
O'Rly? Be honest... where do your eyes focus on this picture
Image
SubGunFan wrote: While I am not saying no-shoots don't have their place, but the liberal use of them does put more semi-auto style shooting in a full-auto SMG match. I am also not saying all stages should be "hosefests" either.

todd...... The Dark Side is waiting for you....... It is your destiny.....
.
SubGunFan you are killing me here. Push the knife in a little deeper and twist it please :twisted: No-Shoots ensure the person behind the trigger has
#1 control
#2 accuracy
#3 knows what the heck they are firing at and aren't just pulling the trigger and hoping they nail something.

As far as the dark side... if this were prison Darth Vader would be washing my socks.

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Post by todd » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:55 pm

VegasSMG wrote:With four bays at each of your matches ,you guys need to have, no, must have, at least one stage at some point where there are no hostages and EVERYBODY dies! Yep, a hosefest!
I think we had a couple like that when you were down this way. We shoot more with out no shoot targets than we do with no-shoots. This past month we had all 4 stages with no shoots although one of the stages they were used primarily to block the shooters direct line of sight to targets.

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Post by SubGunFan » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:02 pm

todd wrote: I think we had a couple like that when you were down this way. We shoot more with out no shoot targets than we do with no-shoots. This past month we had all 4 stages with no shoots although one of the stages they were used primarily to block the shooters direct line of sight to targets.
YES... YES... YES... Although not being there to see the stages, your description sounds like a "typical" SMG stage. BRUP, BRUP, BRUP as opposed to BANG-BANG, BANG-BANG, BANG-BANG...... (IPSC style)

Not to take ANYTHING away from your fellow SMGer, L34A1. And I ENVY L34A1 for having the job of training others in the use of different types of weapons (firearms).... And, I most difinitely look forward to attending his Select-Fire course next year. However...... I feel his influence in the local matches is "geared" more toward "practical" than "fun".

While "practical" is very important... "fun" draws and keeps the shooters.....

Gamers don't care about PRACTICAL when it comes to matches, and Sportsmen will play the game "as designed".... However, both Gamers and Sportsmen will not come back if the matches restrict the ways these types of firearms are used too much........

Matches should be FUN..... Self-defence training is second level for those who are paying attention......

.

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Post by todd » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:33 pm

I don't see how putting up no-shoots is taking away from fun or restricting anything. There are 20-30 people every month who show up time and time again for the past TWENTY YEARS to these matches. I think they must be doing something right. We ask what the shooters want and how they like the stages and they are always supportive, suggestive and eager for the next match.

Perhaps it is just our group but they seem to be like minded when it comes to seeing challenging as fun. I think what some of the FL shooters look at as every day stuff others view as hard. It is a matter of perspetive.

I agree L34A1 brings some tactical stuff into the mix, I think he has to. you can't ask someone who trains people to use force when necessary to draw a line in the sand one day a month and go all balloons and mag changes on the run and revert to using cover the next. It could somebody dearly in the long run and I think that may be why many law enforcement people do not partake in this sport.

All I can say is I hope you come on down in 2007 and let us play host. VegasSMG so far is the only person who can say what's what with us compared to the others since he is a well traveled subgun competitor and has graced us with his smile and subgun skills for an afternoon.

Whats the skinny VegasSMG... are we going in the right direction or do we need to pull back a bit and take it easy

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