Mac-10 + Micro Uzi @ 30 yards... just as accurate

Everything from training tips to firearm discussion for competitors. What have you learned that you can share and what do you want to know?
VegasSMG
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Post by VegasSMG » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:27 pm

The opinions I'll express are mine alone, and I honestly don't intent to hurt anyone's feelings or piss in their Wheaties. I'm sharing my observations and they may not accurately reflect other's eperiences or perceptions. I'm not a seasoned veteran, but I've seen a couple of matches and hope to see a couple of different matches this next year.

There are reasons we only run two stages a month and I'm DAMN happy to live where I can participate in something like this on a monthly basis. We have fun and there's a great bunch of guys here. We don't take ourselves too seriously although we have a few shooters that can hold their own against the best.

I know that the guys in AZ at Mickey Thompson's monthly matches only shoot a pair of stages. I'll bet they're DAMN happy to have something like that available to them. (Plus they have a bletfed match each month!) My youngest daughter recently moved to the greater Phoenix area, so I hope to fly down on a Thursday afternoon), 1 hour flight duration and flights depart every hour from Las Vegas), and shoot their night match and then have dinner with her.

The rain washed out one of the stages at the ISSMC which left the event with two target rich stages that I very much enjoyed. But to call it a State Championship? They don't have a lot of room for a bunch of stages, but I enjoyed what was there. They were well laid out and left me wanting more! Fun stuff!! The Knob Creek match VERY closely resembled Al Capone's hide out stage on top of the hill at the ISSMC. Well, I'd go back just to enjoy the fantastic bunch of people I met there including Mr. Paul Winters and Dave Bane just to mention a couple. The bowling ball mortar match was something that has to be experienced to be believed. And honestly, the Hoosier hospitality I experienced all weekend was unforgettable. The people made the event worth attending and I'll return at some point for that reason alone.

I've shot a pair of the AZ State Subgun Championships and beyond a doubt, the 2005 event was worthy of being called a STATE Championship IMHO. The 2006 event was a little "different" this year. It's close and I know a growing number of good guys there so I'll probably attend every year if at all possible.

I made plans with SubGunFan to attend Chilli's subgun match and due to unforeseen events on my end, we didn't make it. My 5320.20 is good for several more months and his event is on my short list just because I've spoken with him at length on the phone so often that I've grown to actually like this jackass. :lol: Anyone who takes the initiative to start a match from scratch has got my respect. I'll bag on his match ONLY after I shoot it! My eldest daughter just moved to Texas with her fiancee, so I've got even one more reason to give it a try.

Todd; What's your honest opinion of the Knob Creek Championship? I do appreciate and understand the logistics of trying to run a HUGE number of shooters thru the COF, but can you in good conscience call that event a National Championship? I've never been, but it doesn't appear that way to me. Again, with the sheer numbers involved, everyone involved did a tremendous job just to get everyone thru the COF over the weekend.

Are you guys in FL moving in the right direction? Without a doubt, the one monthly match I shot was the best structured, designed, most fun, and challenging match overall I've shot anywhere other than the 2005 AZ State match.

If I could change just one thing about your matches, it would be the 20 second penalties. You COFs seem very fair, but make one mistake and even a good shooter is done for the day. I think the +5 penalties I've encountered are much too forgiving and don't encourage accurate shooting and allow room for gaming. Once again, people tend to fall back on what they know, and I know +10 works for us. It's harsh but leaves room for a good shooter to make up part of the time he's lost. I can't see accessing a +10 for failing to neutralizing while a no-shoot is worth +20.

My two cents and I've pissed off just about everyone here. Did I miss anyone? :wink: Flame away!

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Post by SubGunFan » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:38 pm

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todd and L34A1....

I am NOT trying to change the way you guys in FL do SMG matches. I am just trying to "expose" other ways of doing SMG matches. True, you guys in FL probably have been doing SMG matches longer than others, but with that time you guys might be getting "set in your ways"............

Yes, I admit, I am a SMG match newbie. But after shooting IPSC matches for many years, from my experience, the people shooting in the matches do want to be challenged during the matches, but not be "too" limited by rules and/or COF to utilize the type of firearms the matches were intended for.

Maybe I am "barking up the wrong tree"...... YES... SMG matches are a competition where people want to "beat others and win". But to get people to stay in the "SMG sport" (and add new ones), I feel the matches should allow the shooters to enjoy the fact that they are shooting a full-auto SMG.

I agree, "spray & pray" stages do not promote marksmanship skills with an SMG, but stages designed to be better "attacked" with a semi-auto take away from the "fun" of shooting with a full-auto SMG.......

I still say..... More BRUP, BRUP, BRUP than BANG, BANG, BANG........

todd and L34A1, when you guys set the dates for the 2007 SMG Invitational Match (and Select-Fire Course, and possible SMG RO course), I will "book my trip". todd, I look forward to seeing you again and sitting down to talk about the SMG match guidelines, and L34A1, I look forward to meeting you and attending your SMG course.


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Post by todd » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:05 pm

VegasSMG wrote: Todd; What's your honest opinion of the Knob Creek Championship? I do appreciate and understand the logistics of trying to run a HUGE number of shooters thru the COF, but can you in good conscience call that event a National Championship? I've never been, but it doesn't appear that way to me. Again, with the sheer numbers involved, everyone involved did a tremendous job just to get everyone thru the COF over the weekend.
I think the KCR setup is what it is. They do the absolute best I think anyone could with 200+- shooters and 2 days to do it in. I honestly am not sure what is flowing through the veins of everyone involved there but it has to be something potent and I'm sure it's caffeinated.

I think they do an amazing job with different courses of fire and they are not afraid to try different things. The slider in April was fun.. fast as hell but fun and this water jug thing in Oct was great. I don't know if KCR actually IS a national championship. I know a lot of people call it that and I do know it is the largest event of its kind with ISSMC probably pulling in a close second. I guess the definition of what it is falls partly on the people who hold it. Do the people who set it up think it is?

I know the NFA had some national championships there and around the country so since those formal entities are now gone but KCR remains I guess the KCR match gets that veil of eliteness. I like to call it the subgun nationals... I think it is in terms of people coming from all over to compete there and it is without a doubt the focal point of some the nations finest subgunners. The courses of fire could be more challenging but as Dan Varner said...
Dan Varner wrote: "We have to cater to all shooter skill levels and we have people who only shoot twice a year... and we are those two times"
I wish there was more than one stage but then again if ther were two stages I'd wish there were three... I am about 10 years too late in terms of the NFA , AC3A and their days @ KCR. I would like to see KCR do some invitational even on Sunday morning for those die hard competitors who really want to test their skills against the others. Paul Winters and L34A1 both exude skill nd I'm sure neither would toot their own horn so to hell with it, I will. They rock, and I like to go head to head with people who are better than me. That is how I get better.

KCR subgun has a set # of props which you see year after year and the reason for it is because they work and are time tested. Could it be more challenging? Yes.. but at what cost? They cater to their crowd and I feel blessed being able to compete there. They used to have less shooters and more stages. I'm not sure which is better for the sport but as long as it keeps on going I support whatever they do and however they do it and will lend a hand in any way I can.
VegasSMG wrote: Are you guys in FL moving in the right direction? Without a doubt, the one monthly match I shot was the best structured, designed, most fun, and challenging match overall I've shot anywhere other than the 2005 AZ State match.
I'm glad to hear it. That means a lot coming from you since you have seen more matches in more areas than most people.
VegasSMG wrote: If I could change just one thing about your matches, it would be the 20 second penalties.
We did away with it 3 days ago and at Sundays match had all no shoots be 10 seconds. It's not set in stone but I am going to bring it up for debate and see if anyone can give me a valid reason the no shoots should be 20 instead of 10. I think for scoring sake alone 10 is good and it is recoverable if you work at it over 4-5 stages.

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Post by L34A1 » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:31 am

I have to admit that Todd keeps me in check when it comes to C'sOF. At the close of match day we ask the shooters what they would like to see and we give them what they want. The big hit Sunday was the CQB shoot house done with two houses. (My favorite) This is a blind shoot. When asked what to do next month, all 20+ stated the SHOOTHOUSE. When it come to the 2007 FLA Match, maybe we should take in other C'sOF and use them rather than using all or our thoughts. Then we will have a well-rounded match design. There were only two shooters that came close to scoring perfect. They had 1 penalty each. That tells me that we set a challenging match. :D
"People always equate success with the weapons themselves rather than with training and individual initiative, which are really the bottom line"

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Post by VegasSMG » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:48 pm

Todd; I hope you fully understand my accessment and opinion of the matches I listed. It's subjective and everyone should take it as such. I loved the two stages at the ISSMC, and understand that the amount of room they have for additional stages is very limited. The same holds true for "The Creek" and other venues. Many groups and clubs make due with what they have and I appreciate those limitations. Having X number of worker bees and actual targets at your disposal is also a factor. Many clubs don't allow full auto weapons of any kind and here I am bitching.... :oops:

I'm delighted to hear you've dropped your penalties from +20 down to +10. I believe I understand the reasoning for a higher penalty for killing innocent women and children, but failing to neutralize two bad guys shouldn't equal the same amount of added time IMHO. It can be debated all day and not everyone will agree, but I think it's a good move. Now if you'll move towards 10 points to neutralize all paper rather than 8... :)

We have a permanent shoot house at our club much like your full time props at Malabar. The shoot house is always a crowd favorite here as well. We only use it once, maybe twice a year and it's big fun.

Todd, I've known about your dream to somehow unify all subgun matches across the States for well over a year. I admire your passion and share your vision. I hope my comments won't be taken as a criticism of anyone's match or how they choose to run them. We're all here to share and learn.

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