Subgun Sanctioning Body

A discussion about creating the unified subgun Range Officer and Competitor guidelines.
Forum rules
This should be a civil discussion about taking the best of what we already know that works and creating a set of guidelines that allows for a consistent , safe operation of submachine gun matches.
User avatar
bwe firearms
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:19 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Longwood, FL
Contact:

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by bwe firearms » Sun May 17, 2015 9:37 am

After talking to a couple of lawyers I know who specialize in copyright and patent law I have started to rewrite the NFA rule book. This is 100% legal so we will have a rule book we can use without any legal hassle. In the rewrite I am making changes to include semi auto shooters and update everything. I am almost finished with the first draft and will post it when I'm done. I would ask that everyone read it and send me comments and needed changes. I am going to keep the Master Copy of the rules and post it online. This way we only have one copy out on the web. It will be available for everyone to use.

I am doing all this work now because I have finally been able to set up a new Submachine Gun/Pistol Caliber Carbine Match here in Central Florida. Our first match will be Sunday August 30. It will be held at the Volusia County Gun & Hunt Club. It will be listed on the calendar shortly.
Richard
Gunsmith/Class 2 Manufacturer

BWE Firearms & Uzi HQ
Longwood, FL
(407) 592-3975
Richard@bwefirearms.com
http://www.bwefirearms.com
http://www.UziParts.com

User avatar
bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:09 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Greenfield, IN

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by bob » Sun May 17, 2015 10:38 am

Well done, Richard!

I apologize for allowing others to get me down regarding supporting this effort, your professionalism and determination are appreciated, Thank You.

I feel it's exceptional that you have proceeded and started the project, along with efforts to include the semi-auto shooters. They are an untapped resource that should be reached out to, and accepted. As has been mentioned in this topic string, the full auto community is getting smaller and smaller, the semi's need to be accepted and to feel welcome in an organization that can be focused on the pistol caliber carbine shooter, have they a full auto sear or not.

I fear the effort to create a an organization for subguns and to include the semi-auto shooter may be too little, too late. The Kel-tec match in December in Atlanta is my example. They have already organized a match, and have either purposely or accidentally discriminated against those of us who have firearms that are full-auto capable. My efforts to gather information from the organizers of this match were either "a door slammed in my face" or no response at all, NO FULL AUTO, Period. I had seriously considered attending that match and shooting with the MP5 on semi, however the base cost of the match, plus all the travel and lodging costs are going to prohibit my attendance. Plus, I want to see some AAR's from that match and see if it actually works before I get involved with it.

I've been struggling for some time with the idea that any organization of this type HAS to have face-to-face meetings in order to get off the ground. While the various formats of communication we have available now allow us to send and receive messages anywhere, any time, as is frequently the case, messages are taken out of context, thus creating an angry and un-cooperative situation, thus the need to clearly explain what message is being sent becomes paramount. Could we not communicate on forums such as Bullethose, establish a plan and some guidelines, then at a match somewhere, sometime, gather and hold more open round table discussions?

Please, those of you opposed to working together on this project, either on line, or in person, please help me understand why this would not work?

Now I am certain that I have angered many of you with my comments here, I know that I am wrong, I don't understand and I am misplaced in some of my opinions and observations, I welcome and I would appreciate clarification, either by post here, or you can email me direct at robtdarnell@sbcglobal.net.

Unfortunately, we in the shooting community are often our own worst enemy, I really wish that some day we could accept others opinions and differences and proceed with composing and conducting safe and enjoyable shooting events to include all shooters, whatever their firearm capability.

A sanctioning (I personally prefer the term "Supporting") body for pistol caliber carbines with Full-Auto and Semi-Auto Sections is an idea that is way past due and very much needed. I just hope we aren't too late.
Bob
EMT-Basic
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Endowment Life Member

"When you leave the range, nobody will remember how accurate you were, or how fast you were, Everyone will remember how safe you were"

User avatar
bwe firearms
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:19 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Longwood, FL
Contact:

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by bwe firearms » Sun May 17, 2015 11:57 am

Thank you Bob.

At this point I really don't give a dam what people think. If people want to help I will gladly except it. I think the more people we have working on this project the better. But if you don't like what I am doing simply get the hell out of my way because I am coming threw.

I know have my own match to get set up and make the best match I can, hence I need rules. If I am not allowed to use the old NFA rules then I am simply going to write my own which I am doing.

I want to make the rules so they would work for everyone so it is easier for a competitor to go from shoot to shoot and the rules are fairly standardized. I understand every club has different rules and conditions that need to be taken into consideration. The Submachine Gun/Pistol Caliber Carbine Match rules will allow for needed changes. I am not intending this to be a set in stone kind of thing but something that works for just about everyone with some minor changes to suit that particular club.

I will be setting up an organization to support, promote, and hopefully grow the sport we all love. I am not doing this so I can be the King I really don't care who runs it so long as it's not run by some tyrant who is more concerned with his needs then what the sport needs. I am doing this because I love the spot and this keeps getting talked about but nothing ever gets done, so I am going to get it done.
Richard
Gunsmith/Class 2 Manufacturer

BWE Firearms & Uzi HQ
Longwood, FL
(407) 592-3975
Richard@bwefirearms.com
http://www.bwefirearms.com
http://www.UziParts.com

User avatar
medphys
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:30 pm
What number appears twice below: 9
Location: Ohio

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by medphys » Sun May 17, 2015 12:00 pm

Awesome, Richard.

Something else- one of the biggest problems with our sport is that most ranges (and many gun owners) don't accept us as legitimate shooters. Since 3-Gun is growing and becoming more mainstream, I think, finally, it's a good time to move into the spotlight. We need to show "whomever" that we are as responsible and as safe as any other shooting sport. If we can convince local ranges to allow full-auto, it would be a major step.

How could the sanctioning body help do this?

Some ideas-

We need to incorporate safety first. This includes becoming a certified range officer to show local range boards that we are not just a bunch of hacks. Paul holds the RO class at the KCR. It shouldn't be too difficult to set that up as a Webinar for classroom instruction or make it available as a training DVD. Locals wouldn't get hands on, but there could be a 2 tier level of certification. CRO and RO. CRO being "Chief Range Officer" which would be someone who's has attended the RO class at KCR. RO would be a classroom only certification.

We need to be professional. How about having the sanctioning body "dues" pay for a nice collared shirt with a small embroidered statement like "National Subgun Shooters Association. Certified Range Officer, since 2013" or something or other. I can tell you, I wear my Lage Mfg black collared shirt all over the place when out and about and when people ask what it is, I tell them about our sport and what it's about. I'm not talking about a KCR Machine Gun Shoot shirt either. The shirt could also have the Bullethose logo and pic on a shoulder (with Todd's approval, of course).

The rules (or guidelines) need to be somewhat vague. For instance, if we are discussing targets, we can't say "the following targets are approved" or what not. It can be stated in a way such as "for any steel target, the target should be placed at a minimum of 15 yards and set at such an angle to deflect and bullet shrapnel to the ground."

Sponsors (or sponsor like). Bullethose, UZI HQ, Lage Mfg, Carleson Comps, DetroitammoCo. Anything we could put on a shirt to make us look more "competitive." These wouldn't necessarily be on the aforementioned shirt, but could be a nice "shooting" shirt to wear to the range or when at a competition. RO certification could be on this as well.

These are just a few things that have been on the back of my mind and I wanted to get them out before it moves too far forward.

Food for thought- Good work, carry on!

User avatar
bwe firearms
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:19 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Longwood, FL
Contact:

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by bwe firearms » Sun May 17, 2015 12:17 pm

medphys those are great suggestions. In rewriting the rule book I have hard and fast rules about safety and safety should be our main concern. The rest of the rules I am trying to set up as more of a guideline. I think freedom of choice for the range, stage designer and shooter make for a fun shoot. I will try to get the rules so far posted sometime today so people can see where I am going with this.
Richard
Gunsmith/Class 2 Manufacturer

BWE Firearms & Uzi HQ
Longwood, FL
(407) 592-3975
Richard@bwefirearms.com
http://www.bwefirearms.com
http://www.UziParts.com

User avatar
bwe firearms
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:19 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Longwood, FL
Contact:

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by bwe firearms » Sun May 17, 2015 1:46 pm

Here is a link to the first draft of the rules for Submachine Gun/Pistol Caliber Carbine Match. I am sure I will be making changes to get everything polished up and working for most everyone. If everyone could take a look at them and send me any correction or comments I would appreciate it.

http://bwefirearms.com/Subgun/SubgunPCC%20Rules.pdf
Richard
Gunsmith/Class 2 Manufacturer

BWE Firearms & Uzi HQ
Longwood, FL
(407) 592-3975
Richard@bwefirearms.com
http://www.bwefirearms.com
http://www.UziParts.com

klyph12
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:37 pm
What number appears twice below: 9
Location: Michigan

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by klyph12 » Sun May 17, 2015 4:21 pm

I appreciate you taking this on - I am well aware of the massive amount of work that will be involved.

Richard. I wish you all the luck getting your match up and attended. I set up a monthly Practice Matches for the 10 or so SE MI full auto crowd, the first one - 3 semi auto shooters came to shoot, no FA shooters.. Today, the 2nd one - I had a lite turn out, by lite turn out, I mean no one.

At least I get to practice and test my equipment. How long the club will allow me to reserve a bay and not generate income remains to be seen.

User avatar
bwe firearms
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:19 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Longwood, FL
Contact:

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by bwe firearms » Sun May 17, 2015 4:41 pm

We are lucky here in Florida. We have quite a few subgun shooters in the state and a bunch of us have been starting to work on setting up a couple of subgun matches around the state I am just the first one to get a date. The range said they would be happy if we got 12 shooters. I think I will be able to almost that many subgun shooters plus who knows how many semi auto shooters.

The other thing I am going to do is since I am a manufacturer I will be setting up one bay every match that has at least one post sample on the bay that everyone will use. This way even the semi auto shooters will get to shoot some full auto. This way we can get some new shooters hooked on our sport.
Richard
Gunsmith/Class 2 Manufacturer

BWE Firearms & Uzi HQ
Longwood, FL
(407) 592-3975
Richard@bwefirearms.com
http://www.bwefirearms.com
http://www.UziParts.com

User avatar
bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:09 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Greenfield, IN

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by bob » Sun May 17, 2015 7:11 pm

I have it downloaded, Richard, I'd like to take a couple of days, go over the document well. Looks great what i have looked at so far, again, excellent work!

I'll be in touch

Bob
Bob
EMT-Basic
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Endowment Life Member

"When you leave the range, nobody will remember how accurate you were, or how fast you were, Everyone will remember how safe you were"

User avatar
bwe firearms
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:19 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Longwood, FL
Contact:

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by bwe firearms » Sun May 31, 2015 1:30 pm

I have finished the first rewrite and posted it online. I have tried to bring the rules more in line with how the current action shooting sports rules are. It will make the transition from people who currently participate in one of the other action shooting discipline crossover to subgun competition easier so it should be easier to build our ranks which is what we need at this point otherwise it will cease to exist.

If everyone would look it over and let me know your thoughts I would appreciate it. Here is the link:
http://bwefirearms.com/Subgun/SubgunPCC%20Rules.pdf
Richard
Gunsmith/Class 2 Manufacturer

BWE Firearms & Uzi HQ
Longwood, FL
(407) 592-3975
Richard@bwefirearms.com
http://www.bwefirearms.com
http://www.UziParts.com

User avatar
bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:09 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Greenfield, IN

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by bob » Sun May 31, 2015 2:19 pm

I applaud your efforts, Richard.

You've done a great job assembling this document and keeping the project going,

Thank You
Bob
EMT-Basic
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Endowment Life Member

"When you leave the range, nobody will remember how accurate you were, or how fast you were, Everyone will remember how safe you were"

User avatar
bwe firearms
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:19 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Longwood, FL
Contact:

Re: Subgun Sanctioning Body

Post by bwe firearms » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:52 pm

I have corrected some spelling errors and added a Buzzgun class. The updated PDF of the rules is at the same web location as the previous one.
Richard
Gunsmith/Class 2 Manufacturer

BWE Firearms & Uzi HQ
Longwood, FL
(407) 592-3975
Richard@bwefirearms.com
http://www.bwefirearms.com
http://www.UziParts.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest