Pistol Calibers allowed

A discussion on Pistol Caliber Carbines and all semi-auto guns used in the semi-auto division
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Paul Winters
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Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by Paul Winters » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:02 am

Todd has been gracious to create a place where semi and 22 matches can be discussed. Thanks Todd!

I am working with Ulwembu on a semi subgun match in Holland and he has been asked questions about other calibers like 5.7 FN and 400 Corbin. For those of you who have semi matches, what calibers do you generally allow? Is it a semi subgun match or a pistol caliber rifle match?

Thanks,

Paul : -)#

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by sillycon » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:44 am

I know at Malabar we've had a few shooters run 5.7 guns. Other than that I think I've only seen .22, .45, and 9mm out there. From what I've garnered from the steel target makers I've spoken with, the general rule seems to be that any cartridge under 1500fps will be fine on pistol grade steel.

As for the format, at Malabar it's a "semi subgun match".
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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by bwe firearms » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:21 pm

I have shot 7.62X25 at the Malabar match. The standing rule is it is aloud as long as it doesn't damage our targets.
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Garrett
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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by Garrett » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:44 pm

.400 CorBon has similar ballistics to the 10mm. I've seen the 10mm used at a couple of matches, and it puts the steel down with authority. I think the hinged plates would see a greatly increased rate of breakage if there were a large number of competitors using this caliber.

With that being said, you almost never see the 10mm, due to ammo cost, and relative scarcity of SMGs in this caliber. You might pick up a few more if allowing semi-auto carbines, but I still don't see you getting more than 2 or 3.

The .400 CorBon is going to be encountered even less often. I had a 1911 barrel for it at one time. The problem I had was it did not have enough neck to give proper bullet tension. When the round chambered, sometimes it would go just fine. Other times the bullet would get pushed back into the case, giving severe over-pressure signs (completely flattened primer with no discernible firing pin indent).

If you allow 10mm, the .400 CB will be fine as well.

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by ktwm » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:38 pm

.22wmr out of a rifle and 5.7 out of a subgun/rifle is likelly just over that 1500fps suggested limit. both of these were used at the malabar/florida matches without damage to the steel.

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by ktwm » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:08 am

One thing I have been meaning to ask about at the range is 300BLK.

This caliber is unique because it really has 2 designations based on the loading. Rifle caliber for supersonic and subgun caliber for subsonic. The subsonic loadings were specifically designed to compete against the mp5.

Supersonic 300BLK would of course be a no-no, but subsonics would not damage the plates.

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by Garrett » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:49 am

ktwm wrote:One thing I have been meaning to ask about at the range is 300BLK.
I had asked about it at one time. The advantages are that it hits steel like a .45, and would shoot flatter and more accurately at distance than .45 or 9mm. It also seems to be more reliable in an M16 than the majority of the 9mm conversions I've seen.

The two venues I asked at said they didn't want to mess with it, since it's a "rifle" caliber. There was concern about someone accidentally getting some supersonic ammo mixed in and damaging steel. Another club was worried that someone from the club would see the brass and think we were shooting rifles at pistol steel.

Either of these issues can be easily addressed. But since I don't have an M16 that I could chamber in this caliber I never pushed the issue. If I really feel the need, I could match the subsonic ballistics with a 10mm conversion for the Uzi, and do it with less expensive ammo.

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by Ulwembu » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:06 pm

Last Sunday we had our very first Dutch Subgun Competition match. On this side of the pond full auto is not allowed so we shoot the matches with semi auto pistol caliber carbines and have a seperate class for .22lr semi auto carbines.

In our world we have a standard of 50 targets devided in 4 strings. To accomodate inexperienced shooters we move from one shooting position to the next with a cold gun: no magazine, round in the chamber. This is a rule we "stole" from a popular competition in the Netherlands: "Dynamic Service Rifle".

Anyway, a little video. Disregard the first 20 seconds or so. I did the last run of the day and everyone was getting ready to pack up. We were joking constantly. As you can hear the commands are given in English, which is pretty standard overhere.

First string consists of 20 orange steelplates with two no-shoot plates in between. Distance is 25 meters (almost the same as yards). Obviously I shot one no-shoot plate and splash took the second one down... In our rules: a no-shoot that fell counts as shot. 10 seconds penalty per no shoot.

The second string is our home made Polish Plate Rack at 15 meters. 10 white targets. It performed well although it caused a lot of splash and ricochets (luckily almost none coming back to us). We need to work on some protection for the floor, walls and ceiling of our ranges. Luckily not a lot of damage was caused as we could use wooden boards from the range.

Third string were 10 yellow polymere targets at about 7 meters that we ordered from Germany. Although kinda small they performed well and will be used for a few more matches. Shots had to be fired through one of the holes in the prop. Every hit in the prop was good for 10 penalty seconds (luckily I only had 1 hit). Although we thought that the PPR would be the killer as it's a completely new target for the Netherlands, this prop did it's job...

4th string had 8 blue polymere targets and 2 polymere poppers. Nothing special, just shoot the things!

String 3 and 4 could be switched by the shooter as he chose his route.



We had 36 shooters in 80 runs. First shot was fired at 10 AM and last shot at 4:30 PM. All in all we were very satisfied with the results and all shooters came of the COF with big grins on their faces. Like someone mentioned: the Netherlands has a new shooting game! I invited the main reporter of the biggest gun magazine in the Netherlands and he was very enthousiastic as well.

Next test match will be on the 4th of November. Hopefully it will go as well as this one. Plan is to shoot full competition next year with a minimum of 6 matches.

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by todd » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:34 pm

Awesome, just awesome! You guys are having so much fun and it shows. I love it! Congrats on the first match! Can I post it to the front page of bullehose? Are bump fire stocks legal in your country?

-T

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by medphys » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:50 pm

Congrats on the match! 36 shooters is pretty good I would guess for a first match. Nice work on the dynamic target too! Paul needs one if those at the Creek.

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by Ulwembu » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:54 pm

Bump fire stocks are grey area here. Bump firing is considered uncontrolled fast firing. What do they know huh...

Regarding posting it on the front page of Bullet Hose. Not yet please. We have a new gun law since the first of this month which is very controversial and I haven't had the time yet to fully study it. Dynamic shooting is a big issue overhere after the mall shooting we had last year April. I'll tell you all about it in 2 weeks if you want ;)

@ Medphys: that can be arranged :P I'll show Paul how to make one :P

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by ktwm » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:38 pm

I heard about the new law that could hamper you a while ago.

36 participants is excellent though.

Have you thought about inviting local law enforcement to come to the matches? haveing them in on the event could help with some of the potential law issues.....maybe they can bring their full-auto as a demonstration run.

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by Ulwembu » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:49 pm

Law enforcement don't mingle with competition shooters over here. I know a few guys but most keep quiet on what they do privately to their own bossess...

After those new laws you're talking about, we even got newer laws on the first of this month... And they're planning to get new laws at the start of next year again!

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by ktwm » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:35 am

Ulwembu wrote:Law enforcement don't mingle with competition shooters over here.
Is that because they were never asked? Or is there some actual law or policy?

I know there is usually a disconnect between LE, and the public, but if you at least try to remove that disconnect (as a sport) it may be viewed favorably. even if you invite them to come, it is unlikely they will, but just the act of inviting them shows a lot publicly.

We have very few active LE at our competitions, but there are several retired LE, and they sometimes know the right people, and talk to current LE.....It does lend credability to the sport if you work with LE...or at least try to.

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Re: Pistol Calibers allowed

Post by Ulwembu » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:52 pm

They're not allowed to take their firearms home. Only a few are interested enough to apply for private gun licenses. If they want a private gun license they have to go through the same stuff we have to.

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