Magazine Capacity Restrictions

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
smkummer
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by smkummer » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:42 am

No doubt Lage has done wonders to the Mac series of guns and have allowed people with limited funds to get a machine gun that is competitive and fun to shoot and for that congrats to his designs. Also to the shooters that use his products, congrats on their shooting skills. But I would also say these weapons are like race guns. While Knob Creek has required a mandatory mag. change between stages, the stages would also have to be designed that an average or above average shooter should be able to complete with one 30-32 rd. magazine (the first stage this year was generally shot with 2 magazines so as to have a fresh magazine for the 5 moving paper targets UNLESS one was using a 71 round drum ) OR would inject that Classic (WW2), Modern iron, Modern optic and Open (modified with any magazine and sights) is maybe the better way of classification than what is use now.

I believe the later classification would bring out more Thompsons, Stens, Grease guns and MP40s. Just my .02.

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todd
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by todd » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:27 pm

Interesting conversation. I'm going to play the devils advocate on this for a moment. I've watched the videos of the Fall KCR 2013 and it could be argued that the first and last strings benefited higher capacity guns. So it may have saved two or three magazine changes at most and possibly a few more targets on the slider neutralized... possibly.

With that being said, I guess it could be argued that the drums give an advantage, I don't think of it like that. I think of it as they give the person using them a bit more room to make mistakes. It's more forgiving if you can miss 20 shots and still have enough to finish the string without a reload. It's an advantage ONLY if you have 30 rounds and you miss the same 20 shots...

I've always said that I feel strongly that it's the operator not the gear that makes the winner. As a event coordinator I think Paul has his work cut out for him and he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't . We have a very unique sport since if you made mandatory capacity... let say like in Indiana you put everyone at 30 rounds in modern or whatever division... then you get guys complaining about the rate of fire differences etc... there is always something.

The truth of the matter is nobody shot the perfect match at KCR this year. Everyone had missed shots, some had bobbled reloads and I suspect multiple dropped targets due to that slider was the accepted norm everyone just figured their score would be raw time +20 or +30 (am I right?) .

Chris had the fastest run and he absolutely deserves his Top Gun.. but even he didn't execute that stage flawlessly. Nobody who has ever won Top Gun at KCR has shot perfectly. There is always some misstep.. I think Andy has probably come the closest to perfection out there but even then... a few small mistakes exist and that means there is room for someone to step in and capitalize on it.

Like with any other sport , you are at the event that is the Nationals... bring your national level game. If somebody had shot a perfect run, and I mean flawless run, not a miss, not a stutter step etc... and somebody with a drum with 100 misses manages to beat them via superior capacity... then and only then would I say "hey this is an issue".

All competitions should be getting the best out of each competitor while comparing apples to apples. We don't have apples to apples in this sport, we never will unless we all share the same gun, same ammo etc... It would be nice to see guys go head to head with the same capacity but at this point I don't see it as a deciding factor for me as a shooter.

As the homeboys say.. don't hate the player, hate the game.

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medphys
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by medphys » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:19 pm

Well said.

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Garrett
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by Garrett » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:25 pm

todd wrote:I think of it as they give the person using them a bit more room to make mistakes. It's more forgiving if you can miss 20 shots and still have enough to finish the string without a reload. It's an advantage ONLY if you have 30 rounds and you miss the same 20 shots...
Not just the same 20 shots. The drum also gives you the ability to miss 20 individual targets without a reload. (or am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?)

My opinion of the matter has not changed since what I wrote in May '12 (was it really that long ago). But after having watched video of the last few KCR matches, there is no denying that the MAX-31 is a game changer. I still feel that most of the arrays at those matches could be successfully engaged with a single 30-round mag. But the shooter would have to execute the stage perfectly. There is sometimes zero room for error. As Todd states, the drum gives the shooter a decent margin for error. You can make up a missed shot in a fraction of a second, but a reload will cost you anywhere from 4 to 10 seconds. That's a world of difference in this sport.

So do you dumb the stages down to where nearly anyone can run them without a 30-round mag running dry? I don't like that solution. I also don't like putting a capacity limit on the match. People pay a lot of money for the uppers, and they should get a venue to use them.

The suggestion to take the ISSMC approach and have separate divisions with different equipment and capacity rules for each has some merit. My biggest complaint there is going to be that ISSMC only had three divisions. If I go to the Creek, I want to shoot all four available divisions. If they had five divisions, I'd see what I could modify on my existing guns to get to shoot all five. So if we take that approach, let's come up with a fourth division (Classic, Modern, Open, plus High ROF, or something else).

Let's face it - until we have a match where everyone is shooting the exact same model of gun, there will be some guns that are just more suited to this type of shooting.

In the end as I said before, good stage design becomes the most important part of the equation. The match directors and stage designers are going to have their work cut out for them.

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Spitfire_subgun
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by Spitfire_subgun » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:36 pm

As I was RO' ing and watching at this Fall's event. The few Lages' that were running, were being shot by competitors that were proficent at getting their hits at the required placement on the targets.

A lot of competitors were shooting the poppers too low or not getting enough hits on a popper to send it over.
Garrett wrote:Let's face it - until we have a match where everyone is shooting the exact same model of gun, there will be some guns that are just more suited to this type of shooting.
The only even stage was Stage #2 we all had 30 rounds in the first mag to clear 12 targets out of 175 shooters abut 7 to 8? sweeps were done.

Accurracy should be our issue over mag capacity. I had my own issues but I still got 3 of those sweeps. Best place was an 8th this fall in CBO. Highest ever was 2nd in OBI. I have 50 and 70 round mags when I remember to bring them. But still if I dont make the hits it doesn't matter what my capacity is.
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Kuglespritz
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by Kuglespritz » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:31 pm

Image

What's better, more rounds in the magazine or less?

mp40gunner
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by mp40gunner » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:34 pm

Love the picture. I could make the Uzi & sterling into belt feds that would help LOL.
"Get Some"

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