First draft of SMG Comp guidelines is READY...

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
Hot Lead Zapper
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Re: First draft of SMG Comp guidelines is READY...

Post by Hot Lead Zapper » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:22 am

I was there during the making of the NFA rulebook. I'd witness the changes over the years and to my regret, I'd watched a great Assoc. die a slow painful almost nonexistence. In the beginning NFA life was simple and promoted a lot more full auto shooting with a simple scoring system. At the end, the rules turned into less shooting with y'all can't do that and y'all can't do this. Instead of rules adding time to multi gun shooters, how about "Group A"1 subgun only shooter, "Group B" 2 to 3 subgun shooter, and "Group C or D" 4 subgun shooter (just a simple idea). "Paul W had a great idea how to address this issue as well". I believe in fairness like all others, but I don't believe in chopping off heads because one person grew taller than another person, and everyone has to be the same height to play ball. A group system will work without adding much more work for RO's and MD's with the right system in play.

Scoring System, should be like real life (it is what it is) why add all this feel good math crap. Real time plus penalties. Lets keep it simple all penalties are worth 10 seconds: PE, no shoots hits, and etc. A small stage will produce the same amount of winners and losers, as any big stage will. A Math Scoring Points System of +, -, and x to give large stage equal value to a small stage is like stuffing a fat man into little people clothes.

To make it to the National level, how about take the top 5, 10, or top 20 from an area or state to the next higher-level of matches. Let the MD's and RO's in that area pick the best of the best of what they have to offer to fill available slots. Simple record keeping will do: who has placed first the most often over a period of time, and so on. A standardize point system is simple not needed!

I like many of y’all have been all over the U.S. shooting machine gun matches. Rulebook has only been used to determine classification of your firearm. Common since of safety and RO walk through is all that is needed! If you standardize all subgun matches (3 stages with 3 strings) this will bore the crap out of all of us over time. Mixing it up will add challenge to every match. The main thing is to determine who is the best of the best and send them to the next level.

The subject of DNF scoring just blows my mind. This reminds me of George Bush's no child left behind Act. I can see it now, my DNF score was better than your DNF score was nah, nah, nah, nah, and nah. DNF: DID NOT FINISH (it is what it is) DID NOT FINISH. To turn these words into a score with feel good math is a lie.

What’s your scoring system for DQ? It wouldn’t surprise me if y’all had one for DQ as well!

Your rulebook draft caters to the "I can't" or a good shooter having a bad day. “Man-up” and take on the chin like a real person living in the real world! Don’t hide behind a rulebook to keep you on top. Earn what you have, everyday!

Implementing IPSC,IDPA,USPSA,and 3GUN/IMGA rulebooks, has always caused problems for subgun matches and it always will. I believe it's because subguns are too far different from all those types of semi-auto firearms when it comes to competing. ATF in itself handles class3 in different manner compared to semi-auto issues. Full Auto is a state of mind. IPSC,IDPA,USPSA, and 3GUN/IMGA rulebooks just leave them at home please, or at least keep them separate from subgun matches. BE ONE WITH YOUR SUBMACHINE GUN

I have to give the old NFA credit, at lease it took a few years for their new rules(IPSC,IDPA,USPSA,3GUN/IMGA rulebooks) to run themselves straight into the ground.

But you guys have jumped right onto that narcissistic supersonic train wreck.
HAPPY BURNING!

Paul Winters
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Re: First draft of SMG Comp guidelines is READY...

Post by Paul Winters » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:02 am

I guess I am missing the point. Are you saying that the discussion is headed in the wrong direction on rules or that no rules are needed? Is there a version of the NFA rulebook you have before you thought it went bad? I like your suggestion about the national level, but there needs to be a lot of organization to get to that level such as standard format to get there.

The DNF scoring of worst time plus 30 seconds is a way to score a shooter in a match where something happened such as a jam, out of ammo, etc in a single stage but allow the shooter to shoot other stages in the match and still be scored. Do you have a better suggestion?

I perceive this discussion as a way to help another organization get started. If in your experience, you observe something that won't work, please follow up with what you think will work. Moving forward is the key.

Paul : -)#

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Re: First draft of SMG Comp guidelines is READY...

Post by Hot Lead Zapper » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:57 am

I’ve simply put up a post to address not only the “new” rulebook draft, but also to address some issues with other posts that were intended to influence the “new” rulebook draft. The “new” rulebook draft is composed of the old NFA and current IPSC rulebook.

All that I’ve posted has pin-pointed the ruled areas that I believe to be unnecessary. I’d also offered suggestions, small in detail as they may be, to correct what I believe to be unnecessary.

The “new” subgun DNF standard, maybe it’s just me, but I’m having a hard time with this DNF scoring issue, and that’s coming from one who’s MP40 charging handle broke during the ‘96 NFA Nationals. I understand that the DNF score could play into a national points system to determine over all for that year, but I wouldn’t recommend allowing it to determine or have any effect on 1st place winner in any National Championship Match.

The rulebook can and should set the standards of safety, for example: Don’t break the 180; trigger finger can’t be within the trigger guard until engaging targets and etc.

The rulebook can and should set the standards for classification and definition of submachine guns, for example; open class, modern class, stock class, classic class, and rapid fire class. Personally, I’m not much on open bolt and closed bolt categories, but it doesn’t stop anyone from shooting, so it’s something I can live with.

IPSC rulebook shouldn’t set standards for subgun match set-up, for example: 3 stages with 3 strings, a defined number of IPSC targets per stage, a feel good math system for scoring, or anything along this line of thinking. I believe if you as a subgun MD wanted to hold a subgun match shooting hard-boiled eggs, as silly as it may sound, why not. Leave it up to any subgun MD and RO to have the freedom make it work. This is the only system that will allow us to learn something that we may not already know.

IDPA and USPSA was born from shooters who got tired of IPSC Webster’s dictionary size rulebook that it has become over the years. Unfortunately now they are heading down the same path as their rulebook grows. 3 Gun/IMGA, I think it would be fair to say the same.

The only example I can put forth, Kenny CEO of KCR with his strong stance on limiting rules and not rules limiting shooters along with Dan and your hard work over the years has been the key to success. What used to be done in a day now takes two days because of the turn-out. That’s moving forward.

oxox

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Re: First draft of SMG Comp guidelines is READY...

Post by todd » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:10 am

Awesome discussion!

Woo hoo more fuel for the fire!!! Nice to see you jumping in on this discussion Hot Lead Zapper

The DNF scoring +30 works fine as there is no other easy way for a computer to do the math on scores. I know, I wrote a program to do it =)

HLZ said "I understand that the DNF score could play into a national points system to determine over all for that year, but I wouldn’t recommend allowing it to determine or have any effect on 1st place winner in any National Championship Match."

We are dealing with some pretty old guns and DNFs due to mechanical failures do happen. There is no way that a DNF score would ever place above non DNF scores.. ever. Even in a cumulative point system it's not possible. You'd end up with the wost time and have 0 points. DNF's due to breakage with 60, 70, 80 year old guns are a fact of life and an unfortunate part of our sport.

I agree that the guidelines should not specify what goes into each individual stage but I think it would be fine to list examples of quality courses of fire. This issue is the least of my concerns at the moment since we are lucky to have the venues and people we do at this point in time. Anything is better than nothing.

I'll post more time permitting.. been a busy month

-Todd

Paul Winters
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Re: First draft of SMG Comp guidelines is READY...

Post by Paul Winters » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:33 am

I agree with the notion of fewer ruler over too many. I also think experience and guidelines needs to be passed on somehow for new groups not to repeat the mistakes of old. We have learned, for example that if a course of fire is of poor design or has props or targets that can't hold up for the shooters, problems will happen. KCR works, in my opinion, as a result of such learnings. The course has to hold up to 200 shooters in two days. It has to operate at such a pace that all shooters can be through in two days regardless of weather conditions. Targets have to hold up and enough reserve targets are needed. Identifying where the weak point are such as sliders and moving targets as well as shooter traps and RO traps keep things flowing. Matches at this level are a tall order, but all the things that go into it should be passed on to other clubs to help them run a good match.

This is where setting rules should start. We need, in my opinion, to be playing by the same or similar rules at the local level so we can continue at higher levels way down the road. I agree we shouldn't set the game so tight there isn't room for innovation. We should, on the other side, give enough guidelines to help the clubs be similar to the game. RO's, measurement, penalties, scoring, dispute resolution, etc.
I would love to see something like IPSC classifiers down the road for shooters in different areas to benchmark against each other.
As with any group, everyone has an opinion and some of us even have several. Todd has taken the noble task of giving us something to work with. We are now in the discussion phase. Getting past this to a rewrite is the challenge. I think as a group we are nibbling at the edges, but in agreement on the larger picture. Is this correct? Ladies and gentlemen, time to sound off. : -)#

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Re: First draft of SMG Comp guidelines is READY...

Post by todd » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:43 pm

I agree Paul. We are slowly getting the focus in the same direction. I see it coming together in the next 12 months schedules permitting. As you know it's hard putting time in on our sport and with so many cooks in the kitchen we are always at risk of having some toe to toe confrontations since folks are pretty passionate about the topics here.

With that being said I have to say that those who have found the time to come here to bullethose.com and stay here seem to be all be of a similar mind set to see this thing through for the betterment of the sport. I'm in this for the long haul and these forums won't be going anywhere so as long as it takes and however it happens we can dump ideas here until it works.

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