How come...

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
VegasSMG
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How come...

Post by VegasSMG » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:47 pm

we have separate classes for open bolt and closed bolt guns?

I seem to recall that "back in the day", open bolt competitors felt they suffered a disadvantage with first round shots. This paved the way for establishing two separate classes based on the weapon's operating system. Clearly the perception of that first round accuracy advantage doesn't hold water, yet the separation of guns based on their operating system lingers on. Why? Just because we've done things a certain way for X number of years doesn't always make it right... or does it?

I understand people travel long distances, plan time off, etc. to attend these matches and they want the opportunity to compete in as many classes as possible. I personally don't have a problem with these two separate classes, but wasn't the original intent to level the playing field?

This is not an adversarial question, I'm just curious about the original reasoning and history behind the two class distinctions and why after so many years it's still with us.

Thanks for your time and opinions.

Ulwembu
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Re: How come...

Post by Ulwembu » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:21 pm

From what I understood from several conversations I've heard during my visits is that it used to be upto 1945 and post 1945. However, after a while certain type of SMG's were copied and thus you would get upto 1945 models made in say, the 1950's or even 1960's. I'm not sure about the whole story but at one point the organizers decided it would be too difficult to know each type of gun and it's era and thus decided on the open and closed bolt divisions.

Paul Winters
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Well...

Post by Paul Winters » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:56 pm

Ulwembu has it in a nutshell. When there is money and title ranking on the line and a gun places in the wrong class....imagine the issues. With the NFA or AC3A class there was Classic which was any subgun designed and manufactured on or before 1945. Modern class was any subgun designed and manufactured after 1945. That left the following.

Sten - Classic
Sterling - Modern

Swedish K - Classic
Port Said - Modern
S&W 760 - Modern

This caused some issues and the last thing needed was a Janes manual at the range for verification. Heck, even the shooters didn't know and tried to shoot out of class by mistake. When I was approached with the idea of expanding the Subgun match at Knob Creek to two days, I made some recommendations with one being to clean up the issue of the existing class system My suggestion for a solution was to recommend we classify guns by the way they work, which is verifiable at the line. The classes were then broken down further by iron and optics.

Ironically, open bolt times are usually faster than closed bolt as the bolt doesn't need to be racked on a mag change and mag changes are easier with the bolt back. I don't think first shot is all that innacurate with an accustomed shooter.

Optics are an advantage as well and the times usually support this.

I really don't know if one grouping is better speed wise, but the gun identification is. The only exception I know of is a closed bolt UZI, but it is again verifiable.

Paul : -)#

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Re: How come...

Post by ktwm » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:17 pm

so it sounds like what you are saying is that the 2 classes are not there to seperate the inaccurate guns, from the accurate ones. Instead there are 2 classes simply to have 2 classes, since that is the way it has been from the beginning.

So I guess the real question is, was the pre1945/post1945 seperation that was done in the past, done for accuracy reasons, or some other reason? Perhaps it was just to have 2 classes, to allow more people to compete.

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Re: How come...

Post by Paul Winters » Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:15 am

I really don't know where or why the year gun class distinction was made. The different subgun classes were in place many years ago when I started. My guess is that, like the USPSA, multiple gun classes gave competitors different arenas to compete in. I think the optic and iron distinction has the most impact, but the open bolt/closed bolt classes were a way to continue the classes with a better way for the Range Officer and shooters to know the class distinction. I suppose we could all run in one class, but I like multiple classes and the opportunity to play more. For an inexperienced shooter, I believe a closed bolt gun is more accurate for the first round. With experienced shooters, I think the difference is negligable. Maybe something for Mythbusters to investigate.....well, maybe not.

: -)#

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todd
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Re: How come...

Post by todd » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:26 am

whatever the reason for the initial split of the classes , I think the multiple classes is a good thing. The more people ranking well makes for happier competitors even of the only class differentiator is mechanical

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Garrett
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Re: How come...

Post by Garrett » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:54 am

Personally, I don't see a lot of difference between open and closed bolts. The top times are usually pretty close. It often comes down to the individual shooter, although as Paul notes, there is often a slight advantage to the top OB gun.

As noted, most subgun matches are few and far between, and I'm going to do my best to get in as much shooting as possible. If there was a 5th class, I'd try to get a gun set up so I could shoot that one as well. (yeah - I'm the guy who bolted a red dot onto a Reising). When I bought my Reising, a lot of the decision to buy that particular model came because it gave me both a Closed Bolt gun for the Creek, and a Classic gun for ISSMC. It may not have been the ideal gun for either, but at least it gave me the opportunity to shoot more. A Sten may have had a better ROF for competition, but would keep me in the OB categories only.

From a match administration standpoint, I don't see a lot of reason to separate Open/Closed bolt guns. From a shooter's standpoint, I like that we have more classes to shoot in. :D

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todd
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Re: How come...

Post by todd » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:02 pm

You're also the guy who tried to tape a soda can with the ends cut off on your gun to get into the optics class aren't you :p

+1 for more shooting

I'd be game to see a new class added for skilled shooters only for weak hand... you get one run the COF with any subgun and you have to shoot it weak (or support) side only.

It'd definitely be one for the bragging rights and pretty interesting to watch.

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Garrett
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Re: How come...

Post by Garrett » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:09 pm

If we're adding new classes, I'd vote for a Buzzgun class. Forget all those slow-fire mods. Lets shoot the MAC11 (that's the super-fast .380, not to be confused with the relatively sedate M11/9) and the Micro Uzi the way they were intended to be shot!

(don't forget your wagon-load of ammo and your ammo bearer)

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todd
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Re: How come...

Post by todd » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:15 pm

Garrett wrote:If we're adding new classes, I'd vote for a Buzzgun class. Forget all those slow-fire mods. Lets shoot the MAC11 (that's the super-fast .380, not to be confused with the relatively sedate M11/9) and the Micro Uzi the way they were intended to be shot!

(don't forget your wagon-load of ammo and your ammo bearer)

I'm game with my mini uzi in buzz gun.

Paul Winters
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Re: How come...

Post by Paul Winters » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:38 pm

Ironically, the high rate or buzz gun division almost never had more that one or two players, even at major matches. I tried to play with my Thompson with a 21 kit, but nobody would play with me :( .

Changing the subject, what target array would you recommend that would benefit the high rate guns? If you were going to design a stage to have people choose a higher rate over a lower rate, what would be different. Always looking to give all subguns an arena.

Paul : -)#

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todd
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Re: How come...

Post by todd » Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:58 pm

My favorite high ROF target is still paper... 3-4 targets in a confined space with a few no shoot paper targets mixed in there set up so the shooter can if he chooses advance and move around in the array to engage. With a mini or mac if you move well you can put 2 A shots in a target in a flash and move on to the next one. The real advantage to a fast gun is that with proper form you can put two or three shots in the same hole in the time a slower gun would put one.

The next best thing is medium set poppers in an array spread out like a fan or like your fingers when spread out flat while resting on a table. The shooter standing where the wrist would be. Take 6-10 poppers and stack them so you have a small one behind a big one so if the shooter has their "A game" on they can put 2-3 rounds per big popper to mow them on down (or spray them all down in one big motion) and then swing back to start hitting the small ones.

the balance in fast gun target setups is having enough targets that can be quickly engaged but not too many that a good shooter would run out of ammo while in the array if performed perfectly (2 or 3 shots per popper to knock over or similar hits required on paper)

A similar array could be setup with poppers but left and right of the shooters path of travel like at ISSMC 2008 with the plane stage. Set in a way to make the shooter swing back and forth from left to right while advancing would be fun with any gun really but "sexy" with a fast gun being shot on the move.

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bwe firearms
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Re: How come...

Post by bwe firearms » Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:13 pm

Todd,

I just got an Uzi pistol I'm turning into a closed bolt Micro. You think that will be fast enough. :D

Paul,

It was nice meeting you last weekend at Malabar.
Richard
Gunsmith/Class 2 Manufacturer

BWE Firearms & Uzi HQ
Longwood, FL
(407) 592-3975
Richard@bwefirearms.com
http://www.bwefirearms.com
http://www.UziParts.com

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todd
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Re: How come...

Post by todd » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:48 am

Yeah your closed bolt micro will be faster than any other 3 guns out there combined for ROF. good for a shoot house :) not much more

Paul Winters
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Hey y'all

Post by Paul Winters » Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:33 pm

It was nice to visit with y'all down in Florida last weekend. Richard it was good to see you and your son. Hopefully I will see y'all at the Creek next month. I am busy building and plotting. heh heh heh (suspensful music playing in the background)

Paul : -)#

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