3 round burst.. to be or not to be

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
Post Reply
User avatar
todd
Site Admin
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:11 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Miami Beach, Florida USA
Contact:

3 round burst.. to be or not to be

Post by todd » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:22 pm

I've heard a few arguments for and more arguments against 3 round burst being allowed in matches. I know our rules state the gun must be in full auto mode unless otherwise specified in the course design. Is it really an advantage? Has anyone experimented with times in auto vs 3rnd burst?

SubGunFan
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:09 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Mississippi

I vote "Not Allowed"...

Post by SubGunFan » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:32 pm

I can only think of 2 types of firearms that utilize 3rd bursts, MP5 & M16/9.

I say 3rd bursts should not be allowed. It is the lazy person's method of trigger control. That is why Uncle Sam added the feature to his toys.....

chili17
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:36 pm

Re: I vote "Not Allowed"...

Post by chili17 » Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:14 pm

SubGunFan wrote:I can only think of 2 types of firearms that utilize 3rd bursts, MP5 & M16/9.

I say 3rd bursts should not be allowed. It is the lazy person's method of trigger control. That is why Uncle Sam added the feature to his toys.....
+1

Thats part of the fun of matches is learning and applying trigger control.

User avatar
todd
Site Admin
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:11 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Miami Beach, Florida USA
Contact:

Post by todd » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:00 pm

How many competitors do you see putting more than 3 rnds down range per pull if the trigger? Except for M11/M10's in stock configuration I don't see too many. Is it really an advantage?

User avatar
bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:09 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Greenfield, IN

Post by bob » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:07 pm

I agree, no place for burst fire, it full-auto or nothing at all

More to come
Bob
EMT-Basic
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Endowment Life Member

"When you leave the range, nobody will remember how accurate you were, or how fast you were, Everyone will remember how safe you were"

User avatar
todd
Site Admin
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:11 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Miami Beach, Florida USA
Contact:

Post by todd » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:10 pm

Welcome to BulletHose.com Bob.. Glad you made it! Well if an MP5 owner says the burst has no place who am I to argue :D

VegasSMG
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:04 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Vegas baby!
Contact:

Re: I vote "Not Allowed"...

Post by VegasSMG » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:27 pm

SubGunFan wrote:I can only think of 2 types of firearms that utilize 3rd bursts, MP5 & M16/9.
Ahhh, once more, the closed bolt AUG is overlooked. A three round burst pack is available, but difficult to locate. I had a three round bust selector in the full auto stock I owned, but no burst unit. It's much like the FN system and resets when you release the trigger.

Icer
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:09 pm
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Lake Tahoe, Nevada

Post by Icer » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:26 am

Hey AUGBoy...........oops I mean VegasSMG...........put down that AUG kool-aid you keep passing around..........you don't own one anymore remember! :wink: Tell Mike D. to get his butt over here to sell that stuff to the masses. Wish I had picked one up when I had the chance..........I sure as hell wouldn't have sold it! :lol:

Todd---

What were some of the arguments you heard for 3 round burst?

The 3 round burst argument shouldn't be much of a problem since it doesn't make much sense competitively (but 2 round burst on the other hand might)............but of course that won't stop the stupid from arguing for it now will it? Which is why we have rules.

Designing stages to cater a bit more to multiple shots on one target (ie. having some paper targets) would also help to level the playing field as well.

I say no burst allowed. Learn trigger control or slow the gun down mechanically.

---Icer

User avatar
todd
Site Admin
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:11 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Miami Beach, Florida USA
Contact:

Post by todd » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:39 am

Well the arguments I have heard on both sides of the 3rnd burst issue are as follows.

Against: 3rnd bust gives an advantage to the shooter since they do not have to use the same amount of trigger control as someone without it. Thus they use less shots and gain an advantage.

For / No Advantage If you are popping off 3 rnds on each engagement you have already lost with the state of todays SMG competition stage designs. KCR would be a prime example of where you have a very heavy focus on accuracy.

It was also mentioned to me that one of the older 3rnd bust mechanisms (I forget which SMG it was for) would cycle up to 3 rnds only. So if you engaged a target with 2 rounds and pulled and held the trigger in again it would fire only one shot before stopping. That doesn't sound benefitial to me.

Even in a CQB stage with all paper and an 8pt neutralization required I don't see it as that huge of an advantage since the person who can put 2 shots on A or a head shot in A+ (this is out match rules yours may differ) may come out on top.

I don't own anything 3 rnd bust nor have I ever shot anything in competition that way but I admit I am curious to go head ot head with someone on 3 rnd bust to see if there is in fact any advantage. I'm just not convinced it is a true advantage.

For the record I am a HUGE fan of trigger control. I shot my first 18 mos in SMG competition with a stock open bolt Mini Uzi.

VegasSMG
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:04 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Vegas baby!
Contact:

Post by VegasSMG » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:44 pm

Icer wrote:Tell Mike D. to get his butt over here to sell that stuff to the masses. ---Icer
As some here know, Mike has late night *activities* that keep him very busy and he needs his sleep. My constant badgering paid off last month when he showed up and shot his very first subgun match... with the AUG. He finished 2nd in open and he's now hooked. I'll see if I can get him to set up his Kool Aide stand over here.

FWIW, I'm not sure the three round burst setting has a real advantage over a weapon without one. The two round burst as found on the H&K UMP may be another story. The three round burst advantage in a subgun match may be over rated and overstated much like the supposed closed bolt advantage.

Icer
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:09 pm
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Lake Tahoe, Nevada

Post by Icer » Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:25 pm

much like the supposed closed bolt advantage

One advantage closed bolts do tend to have over an open bolt gun is a much better out of the box trigger pull. Now you can get past this advantage by practice/dry-firing or spending some time and money to improve the trigger on an open bolt. Unfortunately overcoming the inherent design of most open bolts, which have large poorly finished sear surfaces and a heavy recoil spring, is difficult.

This more than anything contributes to the belief that closed bolt guns are inherently more accurate than open bolts.

It's always easier to hit what you're aiming at if you're not fightning the trigger. :D

---Icer

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests