DVC for subgun ?

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
StealthyBlagga
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Post by StealthyBlagga » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:53 pm

todd wrote: Unrealistic? Far from it, turn on your nightly news. When the due in the picture hops on the bus you are on please let me know before you put one in the A and one in the C so I can get the hell off.
I'm actually speechless. Even the "LOL" emoticon is not sufficient this time. Can we go back to talking about the "mail slot" hip shooting thing again... I'll find it easier to keep a straight face. :lol:

If you REALLY want a serious answer, here it is: body armor, chest mounted ammo carriers (and bomb vests, if you live in Israel) are a valid and reasonable scenario IN MODERATION. This is why IPSC matches frequently use hard cover on some targets to force a headshot. In those cases, the target is marked black so that the body does not score... the shooter is forced to make a head shot. However, this is a bit diffferent from ASSUMING that every target you have to shoot must be wearing such a fashion item.

Since you insist on trying to prove your point with "real world" scenarios, allow me to make the contrary argument. A head shot in the real world is a much more dodgy proposition than you seem to realize. When you point a gun at someone's head, guess what: they bob and weave, 'cause they don't want to get shot in the head. Duh. And, if they are armed, they are shooting at you while you refine your sight picture and wait for them to hold still. Moreover, cops know what every armed citizen should - each shot you fire has a lawyer attached to it. The headshot that misses is a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is why (absent specific intel about body armor) tactical doctrine typically focuses first on COM shots followed by a failure drill (head shot or pelvis shot) only if/when the target fails to stop.

Oh, and before you ask again - NO, I AM NOT AN "OPERATOR". However, when I lived in the UK I did have the privilege of practicing for, and competing in, IPSC matches alongside some of the original operators from Hereford. I learned a thing or two about "real world" shooting techniques from watching them.

Icer
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Post by Icer » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:12 am

Todd---

Looks like your scoring system should do just fine............and if we ever shoot a match together I promise to not take any head shots the course of fire doesn't force me to............I'll leave them all to you. :lol:

As far as real life tactics go I have to admit I don't have any military or SWAT training or real life experience to draw on...........so I am at your mercy. I think it's pretty rare/unlikely that a SWAT commander would send his team onto a bus against a guy wearing 25 pounds of semtex. Forced entries appear to take time, certainly enough time to press a detonator 15 or 20 times. I suspect the hostage negotiators would be working overtime in that scenario. Against a guy waving a revolver it's a whole new ball game. A few flashbangs later, one dead bad guy and maybe a few hostages. As the Israelis would say "acceptable collateral damage".

Stealthyblagga wrote:
Since you insist on trying to prove your point with "real world" scenarios, allow me to make the contrary argument. A head shot in the real world is a much more dodgy proposition than you seem to realize. When you point a gun at someone's head, guess what: they bob and weave, 'cause they don't want to get shot in the head. Duh. And, if they are armed, they are shooting at you while you refine your sight picture and wait for them to hold still. Moreover, cops know what every armed citizen should - each shot you fire has a lawyer attached to it. The headshot that misses is a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is why (absent specific intel about body armor) tactical doctrine typically focuses first on COM shots followed by a failure drill (head shot or pelvis shot) only if/when the target fails to stop.



Yeah...........what he said. Cause I can't say it better and apparently type much slower.

Any comments on the other paragraphs I wrote or are we in sweet, sweet harmony? :twisted:

---Icer

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Post by StealthyBlagga » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:15 am

todd wrote:Accuracy may not everything but I think you two have lowered expectations of your abilities for whatever reason.
Todd

You will be glad to hear that I have a VERY inflated view of my own abilities :mrgreen: Having seen him shoot, I have an even higher one of Icer. I'm confident that, whatever the competitive challenge, he would rise to the occasion.

In this thread, I am hoping to promote a civilized discussion about the right balance of D, V & C in subgun competition. Its probably not the most helpful thing to start questioning peoples personal motives or capabilities, so I'd appreciate if you could resist the temptation.

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Post by todd » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:07 am

Fellas, I said I would like to attain the the skill to be able to take the head shots 100%, I never said I would take a head shot on everything all the time. There is a difference. We use hard cover painted targets as you mentioned here and I like them a lot. As far as bobbing and weaving bad guys, sure I agree nobody stands still to be shot.

But the hand is quicker than the eye :D and perhaps if this sinks in a bit in time you will understand my simple point.

You can put all of your shots where you intend them to go as fast as you want. Accuracy does not have to suffer at the hands of speed in this sport. We are dealing with firearms which can put 2 shots down range in a matter of a fraction of a second. It is up to the operator to control where those shots go and the only differnce is a little more muscle control while the second round is leaving the gun.

I'm not questioning anyones capabilities. I am promoting them. I would hate to see anyone settle for less that the best. If you don't push yourself to the edge of your limitations then you might as not do anything at all.

Isn't that the difference between a master and a grand master in IPSC? Just a little bit further... A little bit faster and a little bit more accurate.

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Garrett
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Post by Garrett » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:58 am

One thing that we all need to keep in mind: It's a game, folks!

I read once where someone likened the Knob Creek match to a real world scanario... if you ever in the real world expect to be attacked by a pack of playing cards. :D

Seriously, we're not on a SWAT team, and we aren't shooting people. We're shooting at cardboard blobs, that have a smaller cardborad blob at the top. And we do it because it's fun.

We can make a stage somewhat like a "real world" scanario, but it's still just a game. If you wanted to make it "real", have everyone stand outside for several hours while the hostage negotiator did his thing. If/when we finally get to shooting, we'd run in a door, fire a burst, and go home.

Don't get me wrong. I like shoot-houses with walls & doors & windows. They're fun, and challenging. But it's still just a game to me.

If you want me to shoot just the upper A/B zone, make that the only available target are. Otherwise, I'm going to shoot in the manner which gets me the highest score in the shortest amount of time possible.

I shot a carbine match in Michigan last winter. They had a novel approach. If you hit a no-shoot target, you had to wear the sign/cowbell for the remainder of the match, or until someone else tagged a no-shoot. (Don't make fun of the tactical coveralls. It was January, and it was butt-cold).

Image

StealthyBlagga
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Post by StealthyBlagga » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:41 am

Garrett wrote:One thing that we all need to keep in mind: It's a game, folks!
I totally agree, and whatever the competitive challenge - so long as its the same for everyone - the best shooters will prevail. However, like with IPSC, IDPA, IMGA et al, if we don't keep at least one eye on the origins of the sport, we will end up like UIT... shooting a watered down, neutered shooting sport with .22s, ergonomic grips, eye patches etc. This is why principles are important. Certainly I don't really fantasize that I'm ever going to use a subgun in a gunfight - I think I said somewhere else that my subgun is about the last gun I would ever grab if SHTF.

Image

Now thats funny. Years ago, at the IPSC European Championships in Sweden, the ROs all had little "noshoot" stickers that they handed out during the match to anyone who hit a hostage (and there were a lot - it was a tight match). There were single-noshot stickers, and when you collected five of them, you could turn them in for a five-noshoot sticker. I have some muffs with these stickers somewhere... I'll try to post a pic.

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todd
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Post by todd » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:44 am

I dig the tactical overalls and cowbell! :D

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Post by Icer » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:05 pm

Garrett---

That guy standing in the background looks like he's wearing the same vest as Todd's buddy on the first page of this thread. Tactically I would engage him first...........I recommend a full mag starting in the upper part of the A zone and working your way to the head. :D

That "I shoot hostages" sign would be fun.............the cowbell on the other hand would bug the hell out of me. I'm so short it would probably be tagging me in the nuts everytime I moved. :x

It does look like you are a layering Grand Master. I like how the sleeves gradually get shorter to allow for greater freedom of movement. What a gamer! :wink:

If you want me to shoot just the upper A/B zone, make that the only available target are. Otherwise, I'm going to shoot in the manner which gets me the highest score in the shortest amount of time possible.


Bingo! Sucessfully engage the target but don't waste time trying to impress everyone with your "bullseye" abilities with a subgun.

I for one would like to be so skilled that I could put a head shot in the A+ 100% of the time and not need the doubles to center mass.

Given the significant size difference between a head A zone and a body A zone it just isn't possible to make the shot, confirm the shot, and leave the target with confidence in your head A zone hit. Thus you will always give up a time advantage to the shooter engaging the much larger body A zone. The extra room for error leads directly to faster target engagement and neutralization.

Personally I'm striving for such great recoil control that every burst will be a perfect double............that's right zero dispersion! Bring on those target overlays! :shock:

---Icer

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Garrett
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Post by Garrett » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:13 pm

Icer wrote: That "I shoot hostages" sign would be fun.............the cowbell on the other hand would bug the hell out of me. I'm so short it would probably be tagging me in the nuts everytime I moved. :x
I think that's kind of the idea. it's a bit of an incentive to shoot straight.

Fortunately, it was a no-shoot rich environment. I think I got to give the sign away as soon as the next shooter went through.

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Post by SinistralRifleman » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:47 pm

Time + Penalties is simple and easy to score compared to IPSC/USPSA method.

One thing the local matches do that I like is require varying amounts of hits for targets to be neutralized. For subgun if I was going to have universal neutralizing requirements, it would be 3 hits anywhere, 2 A-zones, or one head shot.

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