Firearm DIVISIONS - Types and definitions

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
SubGunFan
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Firearm DIVISIONS - Types and definitions

Post by SubGunFan » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:08 pm

Hello all:

I started this new thread because I feel we should attack one subject at a time (and hopefully not get off track by commenting on each other's personal shooting history and styles...).

The DIVISIONS (types of firearms) seem to be the most "up in the air" subject so far. Below are 5 Divisions with definitions (and my initial comments). If you think the number needs to be increased or reduced, please list the revised Divisions and definitions of each.

Have we agreed that open & close bolt firearms do NOT need to be separated?



Definitions of Firearm DIVISIONS

Open: All types of firearm modifications are allowed. Optic and laser sights are allowed. No limit to magazine capacity or number of magazines attached to the firearm. Suppressors are allowed.

[My comments: Pretty much anything goes in this Division.]

Iron: All types of firearm modifications are allowed. Optic and laser sights are not allowed. No limit to magazine capacity or number of magazines attached to the firearm. Suppressors are allowed.

[My comments: A Division for highly modified guns, but all the shooters are using iron sights.]

Stock: The firearm must be in the stock configuration. Recoil buffers are allowed. Indexed barrels are allowed. Weighted or lightened bolts are not allowed. Barrel extensions used as a forward grip are allowed. Magazines can hold no more than 36 rounds, and only one magazine can be attached to the firearm at a time. Original style stocks must be used (ie: No wooden stocks on UZIs and MACs allowed). Optic and laser sights are not allowed. Suppressors are allowed.

[My comments: A Division for shooters that have not (or don’t want to) modified their guns other than buffers and barrel indexing. A Division for the “puristsâ€Â

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Post by VegasSMG » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:51 pm

The original IMI Uzi utilized a wooden stock. The folding stock wasn't seen until about 10 years later. Since wooden stocks were a factory accessory for MACs, I'd allow them as well. My two cents.

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Post by Garrett » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:12 pm

VegasSMG wrote:The original IMI Uzi utilized a wooden stock. The folding stock wasn't seen until about 10 years later. Since wooden stocks were a factory accessory for MACs, I'd allow them as well. My two cents.
My feelings exactly. Vegas just beat me to it.

I would caution you not to have too many divisions. While I can't say that they are not all needed, USPSA seems to have a few too many divisions.

I wouldn't do a Stock-Optics class. If you're scoped, you're in Open.

Not sure about Stock vs. Iron. I'd say go with one or the other, since they're pretty similar. Just define what modifications are allowed.

As noted in the other thread, I like the idea of a Buzzgun class.

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Post by SubGunFan » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:54 pm

While local matches might not want to entertain all the available Divisions... State, Regional and National matches should have more choices.

I feel Iron and Stock Divisions should be separated because I don't think a highly modified gun like a MAX-11 (or MAX-10) with iron sights should compete against a stock UZI, MP5, Thompson, etc. even with the mag capacity limitations. In a local match maybe, but not a larger match.

OK, I see both of your's valid point concerning a wooden stock on the UZI. I have no problem allowing wooden stocks on UZIs and MACs as long as the stocks are WOOD and original or patterned after the original stocks. No modified stocks (wooden or plastic) allowed in Stock Division.

.

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Post by SubGunFan » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:02 pm

Stock-Optics Division allows shooters to simply add optics to a stock gun and compete in another Division. And, allows shooters with poor eye sight and a stock gun to enjoy the matches more.

Here again, this Division might not be utilized at the local level......


.

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Post by todd » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:06 pm

Nice work SubGunFan!

I belive as Paul Winters had stated earlier that Stock class will be near impossible to regulate. It opens a bigger can of worms than it is worth in my opinion.

Perhaps the following would work

Irons limited - Iron sights + limited rules
Optics limited - Optic sights + limited rules
Open - Anything goes -- disco balls, lasers and Icer with a glock 18 and a night vision scope
BuzzGun - verified 900+rpm (open for discussion on optics / large capacity mags) - we should list out what all falls in this category besides Mini's and Macs.. whats the Reising ROF?

Definition of limited
Magazines - 34 rounds or less (up for debate but Sterlings are 34 from factory)
No lasers

Suprpessors allowed in all divisions

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Post by Garrett » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:12 pm

todd wrote: BuzzGun - verified 900+rpm - we should list out what all falls in this category besides Mini's and Macs.. whats the Reising ROF?
I haven't clocked it, buy my Reising is easily faster than 900 rpm.

I think some places that do a buzzgun division mandate that it be a "machine-pistol" design. This basically limits it to MACs & mini/micro Uzis. I don't see that as a bad thing if you open it up to anything that makes the RPM requirement.

Would guns modified to shoot faster be allowed? For example, a full-sized Uzi with a thick buffer be allowed?

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Post by todd » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:16 pm

SubGunFan wrote: I feel Iron and Stock Divisions should be separated because I don't think a highly modified gun like a MAX-11 (or MAX-10) with iron sights should compete against a stock UZI, MP5, Thompson, etc. even with the mag capacity limitations. In a local match maybe, but not a larger match.
I can understand the argument but I see stock class as being just too time consuming to verify at a large event. The classes need to divide so there is no possiblity of manipulation by competitors and so RO's don't have to have the subgun encyclopedia memorized.

An allowance can always be given to run special divisions such as ISSMCs Thompson division.

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Post by todd » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:19 pm

Garrett wrote:
I think some places that do a buzzgun division mandate that it be a "machine-pistol" design. This basically limits it to MACs & mini/micro Uzis. I don't see that as a bad thing if you open it up to anything that makes the RPM requirement.

Would guns modified to shoot faster be allowed? For example, a full-sized Uzi with a thick buffer be allowed?
I don't see why not. A lot of people lighten up their full size uzi bolts and a Colt can easily run 900+ . It really comes down to a battle of the quickest finger at that point anyway. Who can carry 20lbs of ammo on a big course and flick that damn trigger the best :D

I'm game.

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Post by Garrett » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:45 pm

SubGunFan wrote:I don't think a highly modified gun like a MAX-11 (or MAX-10) with iron sights should compete against a stock UZI, MP5, Thompson, etc.
I've only shot a mag or two through a MAX-11, so maybe I'm not the best person to comment. But to me, it felt very similar to shooting an Uzi. With that in mind, I would not feel outclassed if I were to shoot an Uzi against someone with a MAX-11. If I loose, it is because the other guy did better, not because he had a tricked out gun.

A true "stock" class would not be viable unless new MGs were available at an afordable price. To have someone with a "stock" M11/9 compete against a "stock" MP5 is not exactly a fair comparison. The guy with the MP5 either has more disposable income, or bought the gun a decade or two ago, when MGs cost much less. In either case it becomes a contest of "who can buy the best gun".

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Post by StealthyBlagga » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:20 pm

todd wrote: Perhaps the following would work

Irons limited - Iron sights + limited rules
Optics limited - Optic sights + limited rules
Open - Anything goes -- disco balls, lasers and Icer with a glock 18 and a night vision scope
BuzzGun - verified 900+rpm (open for discussion on optics / large capacity mags) - we should list out what all falls in this category besides Mini's and Macs.. whats the Reising ROF?

Definition of limited
Magazines - 34 rounds or less (up for debate but Sterlings are 34 from factory)
No lasers
I can't believe I'm going to say this... Todd is actually speaking good sense here !

The divisions above zoom straight in on the three biggest factors in "competitive advantage": (1) mag capacity, (2) cyclic rate, and (3) optics. Everything else (open vs closed bolt, stock vs modified, etc.) is trivial by comparison. I especially like the idea of Optics Limited. I would, however, keep Buzzgun above 1000rpm so as to zoom in a bit more on the small and affordable bullet hoses (MACs, Mini UZI etc.) rather than the MP5, MAX-11 with MacJack, etc.

The other divisions, like Classic, Modern, Stock etc. make less sense to me, for the many good reasons already mentioned, and because its difficult to see how they would be significantly different from Limited Iron (from a competitiveness standpoint). The only rationale I can see for having these other divisions is to make the match more "inclusive" by convincing people to bring their old subguns out to play.
todd wrote:Suprpessors allowed in all divisions
I'm not so sure. As I understand it, suppressors are analogous to compensators on an IPSC pistol; yes, their primary raison d'etre was originally to reduce noise signature in a tactical situation, but their real appeal in subgun competition is to reduce recoil, which they do very well. To me, it makes more sense to put them into Open, but I am open to hearing from others with more experience.

Of course, suppressors present another problem - how to get an accurate time ! If the shot timer cannot reliably capture the last shot, then we have to rely on the RO "slapping" the timer after the last shot. Do people generally feel this is acceptable ?

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Post by Icer » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:24 am

I agree that Open division should be anything goes. We don't want to put any limits on the imaginations of competitors or firearms/accessories manufacturers. Much like IPSC/USPSA Open division it will be equipment driven. It probably won't be as expensive though as our division will be limited to new accessories.............the 1986 ban took care of new firearms.

.....brain swerve.....

Just off the top of my head............what if an NFA dealer got ahold of a revolutionary new subgun and decided to run it against the rest of us? In other types of competition everyone has the same access to equipment (assuming their pockets are deep enough) but not in ours. Would this be an unfair advantage since most of us would not have the chance to purchase or own one? Just asking.

.....back on topic.....

Wouldn't Limited division be better served by just banning optics, muzzle brakes/suppressors, and magazines over 34 rounds? Do we need to regulate every little modification to the gun like they do in USPSA production class? Nearly every question in Front Sight magazine (the USPSA bimonthly rag) revolves around whether it's legal to do this or that little mod to a Production division gun. I'd hate to see a subgun Limited class degenerate into such a mess..........and I'd hate to be the RO who had to inspect each gun with a fine-toothed comb for unfair advantages.

So rules guys............would an UZI with an extended magazine release and drilled out 200 meter rear sight be legal in Iron Limited division? Would both modifications disqualify it or just the extended magazine release? How about the forward grip that Vector sells? Trigger work? A lighter recoil spring? Internal mods but not external mods?

Buzzgun division. Over 1000 rpm. In this class a full size UZI with a buffer to speed it up would be a competitive advantage because the greater weight would help with recoil control and the longer sight radius would help with accuracy. Only fast firing Mac's, Mini and Micro Uzi's, Scorpions, Glock 18's and other small guns with poor excuses for stocks and ridiculous rates of fire would qualify.

Classic division. My one concession to the old-timers that make up the majority of our hobby. Give them a class to run the old iron. Have a list of approved guns. Keep them stock..........there aren't that many go-fast accessories for them anyway. Let them run drums or mags. Make them do mag changes and watch them drop C-drums on the ground. :twisted: Get those awesome old war trophies out of the safe and watch the geriatrics regress 40 years. :D

Suppressors. Since they are an undeniable advantage in controlling the recoil of a subgun (much like a muzzle brake) I would restrict them to Open class.

Of course, suppressors present another problem - how to get an accurate time ! If the shot timer cannot reliably capture the last shot, then we have to rely on the RO "slapping" the timer after the last shot. Do people generally feel this is acceptable ?

Slapping a timer to stop it is never acceptable. With major matches being decided in the fractions of seconds it shouldn't come down to an RO's reaction time. Not fair to the shooter and not fair to put the RO in that position. There are timers that can be adjusted for sensitivity to the noise impulse. Simply encourage clubs to transition to those as funds become available. Part of the published RO training manual could deal with accurately timing a suppressed subgun. Problem solved?

disco balls, lasers and Icer with a glock 18 and a night vision scope

All of which would obviously be unfair advantages on overcast days............thus I couldn't in good conscience use them. 8)

---Icer

P.S. No lasers period...........they're dorky and a guy could go blind. :shock:

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Limited...

Post by Paul Winters » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:37 am

in Limited as Icer suggests, I can see the optics and mag capacity, but muzzle breaks and suppressors? This is a tough call. What about integral suppressed weapons. What is muzzle break vs. flash suppressor and how will it be determined? Some manufacturers put muzzle breaks or flash supressors on the weapons that they provide. We can debate the advantage or disadvantage of every part on a subgun, but we will never neutralize everything. AC3A stipluated, I believe, that similar sight radius was the main limitation.
No matter what is decided, it shouldn't mean that a subgunner must take parts off or on by class other than optics and they ussually designed to be removed/. In buzz guns, having a Thompson 1921 kit in my 1928, nobody wants to play with me :( . Oh well, but let's not forget the mp5K's There ought to be a place for all subguns...somewhere competitly.

Paul : -)#

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Post by HK Shooter » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:33 am

Interesting comments. I also agree that (1) mag capacity, (2) cyclic rate, and (3) optics are competitive advantages. I personally think that mag capacity is actually the biggest advantage.

Cycle rate can be overcome by training or by mechanical advantages. Any sear trigger pack for an HK actually has a mechanical advantage. If you don’t pull the trigger all the way back you shoot singles all day long even with the MP5K that runs at over 1000rd. You need to pull the trigger all the way back to engage the full auto sear. Aren't AUGs working the same way?

At 15-20 yrds, optics vs. iron should not make a big difference for a well trained shooter. I actually shoot better with out optics (with my MP5) than with optics. Shooting with irons is more natural and instinctive whereas with the optics, I always take extra time to align the dot with the target. (maybe just me).

But mag capacity, especially the 100rd beta drums, seem to create the biggest advantage. You don’t have to get distracted with mag changes (one of my weaknesses). I think mags should be limited to the original design i.e. no welded “super longâ€Â

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Post by todd » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:48 am

Suppressors: Suppressors can be adaped to almost all firearms and several firearms came with integral suppressors (stens, sterlings etc..). With the exception of the MP5 (possibly others I'm not sure) suppressors increase the ROF across the board and lower the muzzle velocity of the projectile. This is not an advantage in competition and allowing suppressors in all divisions ensures no penalty for those who have integral suppressed guns by pushing them into Open. They can and should run Limited Irons or Limited Optics. The disadvantages equal the advantages for suppressed fire. Decreased velocity + increase ROF vs tighter groups and some extra weight on the front end of the firearm.

Correctly timing Suppressors: We do it every month. If the RO is on the ball the brass from the last shot out of the gun nails the timer or the timer is right on the ejection port. We also run back up timers (stop watches). L34A1 has the most experience with this as both the top competitor running a suppressed firearm and a RO. Perhaps he will pipe in at some point.

Regulation of Limited divisions I see no reason to regulate everything. Only magazine size and any devices which are not optics which aid in aiming. The reason I only listed those two things in limited is because all other things aside including slow bolts, buffers, feed ramps, springs, barrels, etc. The end result will be dictated by the Indian not the arrow. I've seen guys with Swedish K's and Stens open a case of whoop ass on sterlings, uzi's and the like.

Two stage Triggers: The ingram 6 and Steyr Aug have 2 stage triggers. I was unaware all MP5s have a trigger like that and don't remember it in any of the ones I have shot. I was pulling doubles all day long @ KCR since the trigger was so soft and mushy compared to the Uzi which I am used to. The NFA manual allows their use in competition as long as they are fired in full automatic mode. The same goes for the Beretta38 and any other gun with two triggers (one semi one full). This is again something hard to regulate and if someone was intent on using the single shot from a two stage trigger you could not prevent them.

Mag Capacities We also need to recognize that there will be issues at some point from Swedish K and Soumi owners who have box magazines which have a 50rnd capacity and also 70 rnd drums which came from the factory. The argument could be made that it is unfair to not allow them use them or by using them they are relegated to Open division. I would counter that by stating that the reason for limiting magazine capacities is to compare apples to apples and to derive the competitor with the best overall shooting skill. Although magazine changes play a part in that skill, the advantage to a shooter with a large capacity magazine over the duration of a large course of fire could be significant.

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