Firearm DIVISIONS - Types and definitions

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
StealthyBlagga
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Post by StealthyBlagga » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:41 am

HK Shooter wrote:I don’t really care for subgun matches to become an equipment race like we have seen in pistol shooting.
I agree. Some of the drum mags and welded box mags give a BIG advantage, yet are difficult to find at any reasonable price... they are more or less a hand-made item for most subguns. This is definitely a case of "how deep is your wallet".

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HK Shooter
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Post by HK Shooter » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:47 am

I was unaware all MP5s have a trigger like that and don't remember it in any of the ones I have shot.
I don't think they are inteded to work this way and I think the original FA trigger packs might not even work this way, but all the conversion trigger packs with registered sears, have a little bit of play that when you don't pull them all the way back they stay semi. Next time shoot the MP5 in semi first, see where the trigger goes, than flip it to F and you will notice that the tirgger goes a little further back. By only pulling it back to the semi distance, it will just go bang. Don't tell anyone.... :wink:

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todd
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Post by todd » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:54 pm

After much debate I realized today that Bob is right. Allowing a semi division can only serve to better the sport. Those who start semi perhaps will one day make the transition to the FA realm fo things. Although the NFA manual cites that semi and full auto guns should not be shot together in the same match due to the different operations of them. I feel that if all the Ranger officers are full auto certified RO's then there is no issue.

All competitors follow the same rules for safety and aside from that I see no major difference to prohibit semi shooters to compete as well. If there are limited slots available then the priority goes to those with automatic guns.

So while on that note.... I still think the divisions should be

Open
Limited Irons
Limited Optics
Rapid Fire/ Buzzgun
Semi-Auto

and I have to redefine the max mag capacity of limited to be 36 instead of 34 since there are 36 rnd factory mags out there for Swedish K's I am told.


What do you think? Do those work for the broadest set of competitors for fair competition?

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Post by HK Shooter » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:10 pm

So a competitor could shoot his gun in the specific class (limited optics) AND the open class with the same gun?

I personally like your classes and the mag limits you suggested.

By the way the MP5K shoots over 1000rd/min so that would also fall in the Buzz gun class.

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Post by todd » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:34 pm

I don't see why they couldn't HK Shooter. I had a discussion a few days ago and the buzz gun subject was brought up. The person I spoke to said it would be unfair for say a Thompson with an increased speed to compete against the smaller guns like m11's in factory config.

I'm not sure I agree with it but I can understand the argument. If there is indeed an advantage then perhaps the buzzgun class needs to be redefined with the inclusion of barrel length. I'd love to hear comments on the subject

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Post by Garrett » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:37 pm

todd wrote:Allowing a semi division can only serve to better the sport....
You might want to split semi-auto into Optics & Irons as well.
todd wrote:So while on that note.... I still think the divisions should be

Open
Limited Irons
Limited Optics
Rapid Fire/ Buzzgun
Semi-Auto
I still think there should be a place for Classic guns as well. If you don't want to make it a full-blown division, at least make it a sub-division of Limited, with recognition going to the Top Classic Shooter.

I still fail to see the need for a Limited Optics class. Or maybe I fail to see the dividing line between that class & Open.

What guns do you see being used in each class, and what would make a gun suitable for one class and not another? It seems to me we are just making another "open" class.

The only guns I can think of that would not be allowed in Limited Optics (from my understanding of the division) would be the modified M11s & MAC10s. So you end up with a class for guns like M16s, Uzis, MP5s, and Thompsons, all with scopes bolted on. Then you make another class for just the slowed-down MACs, but those other guns listed can can play here too.

Don't get me wrong, I think more shooting is better, but Limited Optics & Open seem to have too much in common. I still think a gun with optics puts you in Open.

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Post by todd » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:43 pm

Garrett wrote: I still think there should be a place for Classic guns as well. If you don't want to make it a full-blown division, at least make it a sub-division of Limited, with recognition going to the Top Classic Shooter.
I think the major issue with the classic is on the definition of what is "classic". All these guns will be classic in a few years. Who is going to regulate check every gun for 100% factory internals? It seems too time consuming at a larger event.
Garrett wrote: I still fail to see the need for a Limited Optics class. Or maybe I fail to see the dividing line between that class & Open.
Only difference is magazine capacity. Giving those with optics and no beta-C mag a chance for fair competition.
Garrett wrote: What guns do you see being used in each class, and what would make a gun suitable for one class and not another? It seems to me we are just making another "open" class.
Any gun with Irons or optics less than 36 rnds in the magazine.
Garrett wrote: The only guns I can think of that would not be allowed in Limited Optics (from my understanding of the division) would be the modified M11s & MAC10s. So you end up with a class for guns like M16s, Uzis, MP5s, and Thompsons, all with scopes bolted on. Then you make another class for just the slowed-down MACs, but those other guns listed can can play here too.
I don't know why M11's would be left out. They have magazines with 36 rnds or less and optics they would be fine. The only thing the limited removes is the higher than 36 round drums, mags etc...

open = anything under the sun which is safe

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Post by StealthyBlagga » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:54 pm

"Limited" should not be confused with "Stock"... they are completely different.

Limited Optics is any subgun (standard or modified) with any optical sight, provided that does not have the prohibited features (mags loaded with more than 32/34/36 rounds, maybe compensators, maybe suppressors - whatever we decide). MAX-11 with a red dot would be an example, an UZI with 3-9x40 scope would be another.

Limited Iron is the same, but with traditional iron sights. MAX-11 with irons, UZI with irons etc are examples.

"Stock", if we had such a division, would be a truly unmodified gun just like it came from the factory. Several others have already spelled out the problems for regulating what is or is not "stock", so I won't rehash them here. I think a Stock division would be unenforcable, and can be accomodated easily within one of the Limited divisions.

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Post by StealthyBlagga » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:00 pm

Just to complete the picture, here is what I understand by "Open":

Open is an "anything goes" division. Optics, whatever modifications you like, drum mags, compensators, suppressors, even belt fed if you can do that with pistol ammo. The big advantage is in mag capacity, which IMHO is huge compared with any other element of equipment advantage.

Yes, there will be people with original drum mags (Thompsons, PPSh41, Suomi, Swedish K etc.) that will fall into Open because of their drums... but only if they load over 36 (or whatever) rounds. If they want to shoot in Limited Iron, they can do so, as long as they download their mags to division capacity limits. I fail to see the problem with this (other than sour grapes).

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Post by todd » Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:14 pm

StealthyBlagga what do you think of the divisions as I have them listed out? Good? Bad? OK but could be better etc...

I like the idea of a Classic division but I see there being too many possible problems with the actual classification of a firearm in that particular division. I don't want to hear a competitor say "Ohh well this is unfair because they excluded my gun from Classic and stuck me in Modern but it should be Classic... " At some point somebody has to make that call of the cut off criteria is.

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Post by SubGunFan » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:11 pm

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Take a lookie at these......... I think these 5 Divisions should cover everything, and keep MOST people happy........ Plus, the Semi-Auto Division should tickle the shit out of "FA Wannabes" and at least double match attendances. And the additional SA shooters just add more help at the matches. Also, when the FA owners allow the SA guys to borrow a SMG and try a stage or two, more HAPPY folks going home that evening....



Open Division: All safe firearm modifications are allowed. No limit to magazine or drum capacity, and the number of magazines attached to the firearm. Optic sights are allowed. Suppressors are allowed.


Limited Irons Division: All safe firearm modifications are allowed with the exceptions of compensators (other than original factory installed) or ported barrels, nonstock trigger systems (ie: Taking a trigger system from one type of gun and putting it on another type of gun.), _____[there must be more restrictions I am missing here]_____. Magazines and drums cannot be loaded with more than 36 rounds each. Only one magazine or drum can be attached to the firearm at any time. Optic sights are not allowed. Suppressors are not allowed.

[Comment: The "original factory installed" compensator statement is not to eliminate Thompsons, Reisings, M31 Suomis, etc.]


Limited Optics Division: Same as Limited Irons Division, but optic sights are allowed.


Buzzgun Division: Any SMG with a ROF greater than 1,000 RPM and a factory barrel length not exceeding 6.5". Barrel extensions are allowed only if they are used as a forward grip and are easily removed without tools. Magazines and drums cannot be loaded with more than 36 rounds each. Only one magazine or drum can be attached to the firearm at any time. Optic sights are not allowed [?]. Suppressors are not allowed.


[Comments: The barrel length dimension might need adjusting, but I don't think a "jacked" MAX-11 or MAX-10 should qualify for Buzzgun Division. What about factory stocks vs aftermarket stocks?]


Semi-Auto Division: Any SMG style firearm that is only capable of firing semi-auto. Barrel extensions are allowed only if they are used as a forward grip and are easily removed without tools. No barrel lengths less than 16" unless the firearm is a legal SBR (proof required). Magazines and drums cannot be loaded with more than 36 rounds each. Only one magazine or drum can be attached to the firearm at any time. Optic sights are not allowed [?]. Suppressors are not allowed. Firearms capable of full-auto fire are not allowed.

[Comment: I don't think any FA SMGs with the selector set to SEMI should be allowed in Semi-Auto Division. Lets keep it "pure" semi-auto only.]


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Post by Garrett » Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:56 pm

Okay folks. That makes a little more sense between Lim-Optics & Lim-Iron. It's basically mag capacity and a couple of other restrictions.

I don't think I'd restrict silencers and compensators, but that's just me. You would make an exception for "factory" compensators (which I think this is the correct move). However, that makes it seem unfair to the people that don't have a gun with a factory comp. What about silencers on the Sterling MK V and the MP5-SD? Would those be allowed as "factory" silencers? If so, an argument could be made that the MAC10 was designed as a complete system, including the silencer, so shouldn't that be allowed as well?... and the arguments continue.

As stated by someone else, I think a silencer's advantages are offset by its disadvantages. But again, that's just my opinion.
SubGunFan wrote:Buzzgun Division: Any SMG with a ROF greater than 1,000 RPM and a factory barrel length not exceeding 6.5". Barrel extensions are allowed only if they are used as a forward grip and are easily removed without tools. Magazines and drums cannot be loaded with more than 36 rounds each. Only one magazine or drum can be attached to the firearm at any time. Optic sights are not allowed [?]. Suppressors are not allowed.
Again, see my comments about silencers above.

I don't mind the idea of Buzzgun being just for the "machinepistol" class of guns. I think that has been the idea at other matches that have some form of this division.

I don't think additional mags attached to the gun is an advantage. (this comment applies to all divisions, not just Buzzgun) Personally, I reload faster from the belt than from a gun-mounted carrier, or pair of mags strapped together. I don't see this as being a big issue. Mag clamps are not expensive (duct tape and a wood block work just as well and are virtually free).
SubGunFan wrote:What about factory stocks vs aftermarket stocks?
Hmmm. Would a Glock 18 be allowed to use a stock, as there is no "factory" stock for that gun? But that example is more of an exception. The majority of the guns here would be MAC10 / M11 / Mini- & Micro-Uzi / MP5K. I guess I could go either way, so long as it is published prior to the match.
SubGunFan wrote:Semi-Auto Division:
[Comment: I don't think any FA SMGs with the selector set to SEMI should be allowed in Semi-Auto Division. Lets keep it "pure" semi-auto only.]
You sure you want to do this? It makes no sense to me to allow an $800 AR15/9mm SBR shoot, but not allow a $10,000 M16/9 shoot in semi when they function identically in SA mode.

Also, it might be fun for the FA guys to see if their score improves or worsens in SA vs. FA.

I don't get to shoot that many subgun matches, and I like to enter as many divisions as possible when I do get to go. Disallowing SMGs in SA would just mean one more set of gun & gear that I would have to bring (airline travel, anyone?). Being able to use one gun for multiple divisions simplifies things greatly. I'm sure others feel the same.

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todd
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Post by todd » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:24 pm

I think the silencer/ compensator issue shouldn't be one. Pepper poppers which you find at almost all matches are calibrated to drop with the hit of 9mm. At more devious matches they are set to fall with a little more power behind them which might be a 45 takes them down or a nice pair of 9mm in repid succession.

The same goes for the Stock question. Unless we do a classic or "Stock" division it should be a non issue. Remember guys we want people who came to have fun to have fun and we want the competitors to bring their best stuff and have their best day. I'm in favor of whatever allows both.

The magazine clamp issue is a good one. I am glad it was raised. I think the Limited description should then also include magazine clamps. I am sure this will be a touchy subject but we are trying to get apples to apples here and since we can't ask someone who does not have factory mag clamps to duct tape their gear together to feeel competitive we should dissallow them in the limited divisions. Bring the cool toys to OPEN and we'll have a serious gun battle!

My personal feeling about the buzzguns is that there are SO few people running them in competition that we should do whatever we can to get folks interested. I would LOVE to see someone with a G18 go up against a M10 and a Mini Uzi. Talk about pleasing the crowd!

As far as the Semi division I think we need to stipulate that all automatic firearms are to be run as such for non local matches and use the semi class stricly to introduce the sport to newcomers. I am sure it will vary from club to club but here we do not have the space to allow anyone to shoot more than one class. With 25-30 competitors a month and 4 stages we are usually taxed on time. I would say the rules for semi divisions entries would be governed by the local club and go no further with it.

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Post by StealthyBlagga » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:02 pm

SubGunFan wrote: Take a lookie at these......... I think these 5 Divisions should cover everything, and keep MOST people happy........
I think you and Todd are on the right track here... these 5 divisions cover the main competitive differentiators, put similar equipment in the same division, and avoid all the "what is classic/stock" confusion. Yes, some people will always want a division just for them (look at the dogs breakfast that USPSA is now, with so many different divisions) but the proposed Open, Limited Iron, Limited Optic, Buzzgun and Semi divisions make good sense.

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Post by SubGunFan » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:31 pm

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Thanks StealthyBlagga. todd came up with the 5 Divisions, I just added the "guts"........... :)

PS: Final "guts" still pending......


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