No-shoot hits - "dead is dead" or per hit....

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.

Should shooters be penalized for each hit on a no shoot?

yes
1
17%
no
5
83%
 
Total votes: 6

SubGunFan
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No-shoot hits - "dead is dead" or per hit....

Post by SubGunFan » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:27 pm

Hello all:

The subject of this thread is no-shoot hit penalties. This subject should be pretty much "cut & dry"......

Should no-shoot (hostage) targets be penalized only once per target, or per hit on the target...?

I feel hits on a no-shoot target should be penalized on a "per hit" basis. You guys talk about going for accuracy and trigger control in SMG matches. Why then allow sloppy shooting to get a break on no-shoot hits by only penalizing once per target. If for what ever reason a shooter hits a no-shoot more than once, that shows me sloppy shooting. We are requiring multiple "good" hits on shoot targets to score, then why count multiple hits on a no-shoot as only one penalty...?

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todd
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Post by todd » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:03 pm

Dead is dead. One shot or 100 shots it should be one penalty. The fact that you hit it at all is lesson learned there. +10 in a tough competition will take you out of the running anyway so there is no point in over punishing.

Edit: Made poll on original post + made post sitick

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Post by StealthyBlagga » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:42 pm

I'm glad to see Todd agreeing with the IPSC... under IPSC rules, no more than two hits on a given no-shoot target are penalized (i.e. minus 20 points maximum). This is consistent with standard scoring on shoot targets (best two hits to count). Like Todd said, dead is dead.

And don't get me started on the question of accuracy nazis :mrgreen: .

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Post by VegasSMG » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:08 pm

I agree that dead is dead no matter the location of the hit. Conversely then, any single hit on a bad guy should be enough to call them dead as well. Can someone explain this logic?

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todd
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Post by todd » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:15 pm

VegasSMG wrote:I agree that dead is dead no matter the location of the hit. Conversely then, any single hit on a bad guy should be enough to call them dead as well. Can someone explain this logic?
Good point Vegas.. I think of it as a penalty for hitting them at all. The fact that your round was not where you intended it is bad enough. If you shot at a bad guy who was trying to mug you and missed him and instead nailed the guy down the street, you are going to be owned by him/his family if you survive the attack regardless of if he is injured or dead.

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Post by Garrett » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:04 pm

VegasSMG wrote:I agree that dead is dead no matter the location of the hit. Conversely then, any single hit on a bad guy should be enough to call them dead as well. Can someone explain this logic?
One thing to keep in mind: we're shooting at targets, and none of them end up "dead".

I really don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on this one. Just publish it before the match so everyone knows how things are to be scored.

I usually try not to hit the no-shoots at all.

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Post by SubGunFan » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:18 pm

.

I would like to hear Icer, L34A1, and Paul's comments on this subject...


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Paul Winters
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Post by Paul Winters » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:10 pm

Since we are shooting full auto or at least every pull of the trigger has the potential for full auto, my understanding and from an scoring RO standpoint recommendation is a single hit (minimum( 1/2 a bullet inside the perf) is a 10 second ding up to a mag dump for the same 10 second. On a no-shoot plate the same with minimum 1/2 bullet strike up to...

Let's not put those shooters with a high rate firearm or new to the game into more than they are already into. 10 seconds is costly. I personally like 10 seconda for all penalties. It is easy to remember for scoring and all hurts the same. In closed bolt iron at the creek, one no-shoot moved me from a first place to sixth. That hurts! What was it on Animal House. ' Thank you sir, may I have another.

Paul : -)#

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Post by SubGunFan » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:33 pm

.

In the poll, I am the only YES vote (so far). But after reading Paul's last post stating we a shooting full-autos, it finally hit me (....duh) that unlike a semi-auto where you can easily stop after one bad shot (bad sight picture), with full-autos it is 1, 2, 3+ rounds fired during that bad sight picture.

As someone has stated about me..... "your IPSC roots are showing". I would have to agree 100% here.

So, can we all agree that "dead is dead" when it comes to no-shoot hits?

Also, a point of clarity..... What is a "hit"? Any bullet hole that breaks the scoring line, or a full diameter bullet hole in the scoring area on paper targets. I think this rule should also hold true for shoot targets. What about steel targets...? At ISSMC in June they had no-shoot steel targets going down from bullet splatter and post hits. They did keep the no-shoots painted well and checked them for whole bullets hit and penalized only for those. My question is.... What about edge hits on no-shoot steel targets that are designed to fall over but don't. Do any hits on a steel no-shoot count as long as the hits are not only from bullet splatter?

Hopefully this subject will not be other "can of worms".......... :)

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Post by todd » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:59 pm

I feel any shot in whole or in part (non fragmented) inside the outter line on a no shoot counts.

Steel has to be defeated with a solid hit to the painted surface. There should be no "edge" hits since any steel which is not perpendicular to the shooter should not be shot as it causes a safety concern. If you ding a no shoot plate and it does not fall then you don't get penalized. You can turn them all sideways but if they don't fall off the post then they do not count.

I guess the debate could rage on about if you nailed a steel no shoot and it had a visible mark but did not fall that you should get the penalty. For arguments sake I would say it has to fall and have a hit on it to be counted. They used this rule at KCR Oct 2006 and it was a simple and verifiable process which nobody contested to my knowledge.

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Post by SubGunFan » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:45 pm

.

OK... Allow me to state the "steel no-shoot target hits" rules for the records....

If a steel no-shoot target is designed to fall over, then it must fall to count. And the steel no-shoot target must have been hit directly by a whole bullet, not bullet splatter or another object. Correct...?

If a steel no-shoot target is rigid (not designed to fall over), then any direct hit from a whole bullet will count, even edge hits. Correct....?

Note to shooters: Make damn sure ALL steel no-shoot targets are painted well before you start your run on the stage. Part of this responsibilty is the shooter's. Also, make damn sure ALL paper no-shoots have been pasted before you start.


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Post by SinistralRifleman » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:40 pm

One penalty per target...but I believe they should be large penalties, at competitions I've run they were always at least 25 seconds added to the shooter's time.

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Post by todd » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:50 pm

SinistralRifleman wrote:One penalty per target...but I believe they should be large penalties, at competitions I've run they were always at least 25 seconds added to the shooter's time.
We used to do 20 secs for no shoot and 10 for failure to neutralize a target. Do you see a difference in the penalty for each or would you give a flat 25 secs for both penalty types?

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Post by SinistralRifleman » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:16 pm

todd wrote:
SinistralRifleman wrote:One penalty per target...but I believe they should be large penalties, at competitions I've run they were always at least 25 seconds added to the shooter's time.
We used to do 20 secs for no shoot and 10 for failure to neutralize a target. Do you see a difference in the penalty for each or would you give a flat 25 secs for both penalty types?
For targets that have no holes or weren't hit, I do +25...it doesn't matter if you shot at it or not. Likewise, no-shoots are +25.

If someone hits a target, but it's in hard cover marked area (black) or it's a steel and doesn't fall, it's only +10

Single non-neutralizing hit on paper, but in a scored area = +5

Higher penalties places a greater emphasis on the combination of accuracy and speed. If you're fast, but can't hit the shoot targets, or hit the no shoots, you're screwed. I do like to do head shot only targets or targets with hard cover marked areas to force people to make their shots count on at least a couple of the targets on any given course.

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Post by Paul Winters » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:44 am

A clear break on an outer perf on in to the A zone on paper puts it on paper. 1/2 a bullet strike on steel plates that fall is a hit. 1/2 a bullet strike on a popper whether it fall or not owns it. 10 secconds for all penalties. This is my recomendation.

The actual definition for a match as to fall/ no fall for no-shoots is OK by me as long as it is decided and declared before the first round is fired. On penalties 5 for this 10 for this and 20 for that just makes scoring more complex and doesn't realy change the game. Any ding puts you down. The scoring RO is like most of us a weekender and trying to remember what ding goes where can lead to issues. Once a competitor signs his scoresheet it is cast in stone. Finding out later that an RO may have scored the wrong amount for penalty without proper documenting the penalty, just leads to frustration. KISS is my recomendation.

Paul : -)#

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