The selector switch... to use or not to use

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.

I would like to see selector option targets in matches

Yes
6
67%
No
3
33%
 
Total votes: 9

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todd
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The selector switch... to use or not to use

Post by todd » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:50 am

To select or not to select...

I am a big fan of the selctor switch. Although some guns have nicer, smoother, and prettier selector switches than others, and the fact that some guns have none at all, I feel strongly that we should encourage the use of the selector. This does not mean that we need to mandate it in national level matches however I feel it is important that as members of the select fire society (that as a nice ring to it) we allow competitors who have a selector switch the option of using it when necessary. It is on the firearms for a reason.

I propose we call it the selector option and that it work in the following way:

In a stage which the stage designer feels a semi shot might be the prudent choice , such as a target with the head only visible hidden behind several staggered no shoots at 25 yards, the coordinator designates these targets as "selector option" targets. Those competitors who choose to use their selector switch and go to semi may do so to engage these targets. The competitors must switch back to auto before engaging regular targets or suffer a 10 sec procedural for each shot taken with the selector in the semi position.

The number of selector option targets should not exceed 10% of the total number of targets on a given stage. Stages with selector option should not exceed 33% of the total stages for the match.

So 1 out of all of the stages in a 3,4 or 5 stage match can have selector option targets. If that stage has 40 targets no more than 4 targets can be selector optioned.

I think the slector option adds a lot of life and variety to existing stages if implimented properly. Imagine blazing through a course taking out a few dozen steel plates and poppers and you come around a barricade and see paper target right in front of your face, you engage him with two shots to the A zone and see 30 yrds out a set of three 4" plates hovering in the middle of a field of no shoots. You are faced with the decision ... precision vs speed ... Can you not miss? Can you single shot all 3? Maybe one or two of them sure but all 3? You are a little tired after all that running... what's the right move?

You slide the slector into semi *ding* *ding* *ding* go the plates as you rush forward while pushing the selector with your thumb back into fun mode to finish the stage.

In my mind that is the very essence of cerebral shooting.

What do you think?
Last edited by todd on Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by HK Shooter » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:25 am

I can't imagine that there are many "semi" FA shooters out there. I personly would hate to fumble with one more switch while shooting under pressure. In addition I can shoot singles with all my guns in FA mode, so what is the big benefit?

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Post by todd » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:05 pm

I really think the point with this whole forum isn't for us to decide based on your personal likes or dislikes or abilities. The point is to make decisions based on testing the skill level of the competitors. If we all stuck with what was easy for us to do under pressure then we'd all be shooting paper targets 2 feet away right?

I don't see it as a "semi" FA shooter but as someone who knows how to use their gun as it was designed and intended to be used. Why do you think they put the semi selector switch on the guns? It's there because it can, has, and will continue to be used by operators world wide if the situation presents itself.

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Post by bob » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:11 pm

For discussion / argument sake, what about a semi- auto class?, for those who live in People's Republic states or have a CLEO who won't sign off on a Form 4, should these folks be given consideration?

You might want to move this to it's separate catagory?

I recall having discussions about this some year's back, it was pretty much felt this would appeal to a great number of people, thus resulting in another 2- day match for it would fill almost immediately.

Like I said, just for discussion, should there be a semi-auto class?

Be interested to see what everyone thinks
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Selector-Option is NOT fair to all....

Post by SubGunFan » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:01 pm

.

I would say a stage with small targets at 20+ yards in a field of no-shoot targets was piss-poor design for a SMG match. A carbine/rifle stage yes.

You have to remember, there are quite a few SMGs out there that do not have selectors and are FA only. I feel the guns should stay on FULL-AUTO (and stage designers should remember we are using SMGs, not rifles).

A "Selector-Option" stage could be an Exhibition stage (not for match score)....

.

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Post by todd » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:31 pm

bob wrote:For discussion / argument sake, what about a semi- auto class?, for those who live in People's Republic states or have a CLEO who won't sign off on a Form 4, should these folks be given consideration?
A different discussion for a different time perhaps. We need to get the SMG stuff nailed down at this point. Semi people have a lot of options already.

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Post by StealthyBlagga » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:32 pm

Suprisingly, I don't have a dog in this fight... I have a fire selector on my subgun, so for me I can go either way. However, people with older auto-only subguns might find this a bit exclusionary.

The semi-auto division idea is a great way of bringing more shooters in. The world is full of pistol caliber carbines and SBRs, and no competitive forum for them. Given the prohibitive cost of Class 3 these days, such a low cost entry-level division would be very popular IMHO.

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Re: Selector-Option is NOT fair to all....

Post by todd » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:02 pm

SubGunFan wrote:.

I would say a stage with small targets at 20+ yards in a field of no-shoot targets was piss-poor design for a SMG match. A carbine/rifle stage yes.

You have to remember, there are quite a few SMGs out there that do not have selectors and are FA only. I feel the guns should stay on FULL-AUTO (and stage designers should remember we are using SMGs, not rifles).

A "Selector-Option" stage could be an Exhibition stage (not for match score)....
.
I implore you dig up effective ranges of common submachine guns online. You'll find numbers going out to 200+ meters. I think there is a common misconception that because they shoot pistol caliber ammo they are relegated to 25 yrds and in (common length of many pistol ranges). The mini Uzi has an effective range out to 150M and the full size uzi 225M. Many subguns have comprable or longer barrels than the Uzi family and push a greater velocity.

I agree that the majority of SMG targets should be inside of 25 yrds but the guns very capable of 30 yrd+ shots all day long. I'm curious how many people have actually tried to shoot a 4-6" plate at 30,40,50,100 yards from various shooting positions. If you have not I have a feeling that you will be surprised at the results.

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Post by L34A1 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:15 pm

On anothrer note, no one stated that the operator HAS to manipulate his selector. The whole point is that if there is a place for it to be used AND the OPERATOR wishes to use it then so be it. I would like to know how many people truly have formal training with their submachine gun or are they just self taught without a background on how these weapons were really meant to be used. Todd is 100% correct in stating that these weapons were not made just for a spray and pray COF. I remember not so long ago (this year) that Todd stepped up to the plate dropped to a knee, placed his Mini in semi and shot a 100yd 6 inch plate (2 shots) at a carbine match where others could not hit it with their .223s in 5 or more shots. Was this stupid, luck or did Todd prove that it could be done?The purpose of a competition is for the COF to CHALLENGE the shooter. I am reading here that a COF with a small plate at 25+ yds is a bad design. (???) Imagine the results of accurately shooting a long distance target with a smg. How much better of a shooter would you be when you need now to engage a CLOSE accurate target. I am here to say that a SMG is a carbine and a pistol combined. An true operator will learn the +/- of his/her weapon and use it to the fullest extent. We incorporated the selector options for those who needed it (rapid firing guns that needed a precise shot placement) so those guns could now compete with other slower ROF weapons. Again I say let the operator decide. Standard NRA LE Select-Fire operators course teaches LE that any target outside 15 yds should, if needed, be engaged in semi thus using the selector.
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Post by SubGunFan » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:04 pm

.

Yes, but some SMGs don't have the luxury of selectors. Those type stages are not going to be fair to a lot of shooters...........


.

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Post by Garrett » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:12 pm

bob wrote:For discussion / argument sake, what about a semi- auto class?, for those who live in People's Republic states or have a CLEO who won't sign off on a Form 4, should these folks be given consideration?
Personally, I like the idea. Leave it as an option for the club to use at their discretion.

If the match isn't profitable for the club, it won't last long. If a semi-auto class brings in more shooters, then by all means do it.

I shot a Pistol Caliber Carbine match a couple of months ago, and it was a lot of fun. I think most everyone had either a Mech-Tech upper on a 1911 or Glock, or an AR15/9mm. I ran my M11 (in semi, club rules :( ) and there was another guy with a Thompson.

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Post by todd » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:53 pm

SubGunFan wrote:.

Yes, but some SMGs don't have the luxury of selectors. Those type stages are not going to be fair to a lot of shooters...........


.
Agreed. Perhaps this idea is going to be left for local club matches until a solution and final count of auto only smgs is created.

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Post by L34A1 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:29 am

Well said Garrett (btw we missed you at the Oct KCR match), remember what we are tring to accomplish. The rule book on what you can possibly expect at a SMG match and the means to set a match up. Each state can choose that 30yd shot or leave all the targets at 15yds. By all means a smg match is not going to be 45 targets at 40+yds. We are talking about 1 or two "hostage" taker shots in the middle or on the back side of a shoot house entry. :shock:

Imagine entry into a shoot house removing 10 -12 bad guys CQB style, then the last shot, a hostage taker, head tucked in close to the hostage, 18yds, target area 3x3, move to semi or disiplined trigger control, shooters choice.................... :D now thats what I'm talk'in about.
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Selector switch....not bad

Post by bob » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:59 pm

OK just back from the range, I tried the semi auto thing at 75 yards with the MP 5, not bad, kinda grows on you.

I must agree with Garrett, it's probably best left to local club option to use, but it can be done. One caveat though, if going to have a station or part of a stage with 75-100, I would either

a) practice it each time, which I'll be doing, or

b)MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE to widely publicize that it would be highly recommended to practice this skill prior to attending the match at x location on y date.

I could hear the Range Lawyers warming up even as I changed magazines, ' this is too hard, nobody told me, whine,whine, etc" you get the idea.

But it definately works, For me, I need to aim much lower, with iron sights at least. An excellent idea and concept, I hope to get more from here.

Have a good one guys,
Bob
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Post by L34A1 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:08 pm

The longest distance that we can get at the Palm Bay range is 40 yds. So that should be pretty easy. :)
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