Rule topics to think about

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
Post Reply
User avatar
todd
Site Admin
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:11 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Miami Beach, Florida USA
Contact:

Rule topics to think about

Post by todd » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:17 pm

Firearm changes during a match - if a competitors gun has a major issue and is rendered inoperable they can continue subsequent stages with a similar gun which would put them in the same division. A DNF is given for the stage which was not completed due to the malfunction.

Retrieval of dropped mags
- pick up OK vs not ok

Equipment failure
- reshoot should be given if prop or eqipment failure happens

Limitations of Practice - A person who has shot a stage before competition begins will not be eligable for a ranked position during the competition. This is in place to ensure that a coordinator or designer does not get a little extra practice in and then take high place on the podium.

- side note When we have the FL invitational L34A1 and I will not be eligable for prizes. We do not preshoot the stages ever but we feel it is the proper thing to do as the hosts.

StealthyBlagga
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:18 pm
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: AZ

Post by StealthyBlagga » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:38 pm

Firearm changes during a match - Most practical matches say this is OK in case of irreparable failure of the original gun, only if (1) the replacement is comparable to the original (complies with division rules), and (2) the MD approves the switch. This should obviously be a rare occurrence.

Retrieval of dropped mags - Provided its done safely, then why not... if someone wants to waste time bending to retrieve a dropped mag that may be full of dirt, let them. The only exception would be where a mandatory reload is required... then the old mag has to be replaced with a new one for at least one shot (but the old one could be retrieved for later use, I guess).

Equipment failure - If you mean RANGE equipment failure (prop falls down, target moves, mover does not move etc.), then YES, of course the shooter should get a reshoot. The same with poppers that don't fall (assuming you use the IPSC or similar popper calibration protocol to confirm it was out of calibration).

A related point: If you deem targets to be inpenetrable, then you also need to enforce a reshoot if a steel target is knocked down by a shoot-through on paper (deemed range equipment failure because the popper was put in a dumb place, and thus fell by an "illegal" shot). This prevents people from gaming the stage by shooting to get multiple shoot throughs, which is of course totally at odds with the rationale of the sport.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should a shooter be allowed to reshoot a stage for score because of their own equipment failures (gun jams, breaks, forgot ammo, whatever - no excuses). I'm sure you didn't mean this, but I wanted to make it clear.

Limitations of Practice - I agree; first run only should count for score, whether it is shot at the match or beforehand. All subsequent runs should just be "fun runs". This is an extension of the discussion about re-entry penalties. IMHO, each shooter should elect only one equipment division for a given COF, and shoots this for score. If they brought other guns and want to shoot again, then fine - but not for score, just for fun. This also opens the prize table up to other shooters, rather than a handful of top shooters hogging all the goodies.

User avatar
todd
Site Admin
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:11 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Miami Beach, Florida USA
Contact:

Post by todd » Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:54 pm

I put up a poll regarding the shoot throughs... I am eager to see what people think. http://bullethose.com/viewtopic.php?t=44

As far as the equipment failure yes I meant range props. I think stage reshoots due to equipment failure are fine only at the local level.

Dropped mags.. I agree pick ups are ok as long as all safety protocols are followed.

User avatar
bob
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:09 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Greenfield, IN

Post by bob » Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:31 am

I agree with all points taken, on the issue of dropped mags, must be sure that the muzzle stays in a safe direction, otherwise DQ'd for breaking the 180, I don't worry about picking up, too risky for me to do while making a run, besides they can always be cleaned up.

I definately feel that only the first run counts, for whatever class, I guess, Sarah and I both plan on running at least KCR with and without optics next year, should be fun.

Just for the discussion, how is hard cover defined?,some disciplines use dark painted cover as hard cover, is this something that can be agreed upon? Will bullet strikes on shoot targets be counted if the round goes thru hard cover (cardboard, lauan plywood etc), of course a round thru a no-shoot would be counted against.
Bob
EMT-Basic
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Endowment Life Member

"When you leave the range, nobody will remember how accurate you were, or how fast you were, Everyone will remember how safe you were"

User avatar
Garrett
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:37 am

Re: Rule topics to think about

Post by Garrett » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:47 pm

todd wrote:Firearm changes during a match - if a competitors gun has a major issue and is rendered inoperable they can continue subsequent stages with a similar gun which would put them in the same division. A DNF is given for the stage which was not completed due to the malfunction.
While I agree with allowing a replacement firearm, I don't agree with the DNF. A Did-Not-Finish is a relic from the '70s, and has no place in a modern shooting competition.

Back in the day before electronic timers, one RO at an IPSC match ran a stopwatch. Each stage had a designated "stop plate" which was engaged last. Any shots fired after engaging the stop plate did not count for score. Shooting this plate let the RO know that you were done, and he stopped the time. In the case of a broken gun, the stop plate could not be engaged, and an accurate time could not be recorded. Thus the DNF, which resulted in a zero score for the stage.

If using IPSC style "comstock" scoring (points / time) it is possible to give a zero score for any given stage. If however, we use a time-based scoring system (time + penalties) a score of zero time could not be awarded (after all, we want the lowest time possible). If someone can't finish a stage, and they get a DNF, they basically get a "no score" for the entire match, even if they ace all of the other stages.

This would seem especially unfair if a shooter successfully shot all targets in a stage but one before having a gun breakage. That shooter would still get a DNF, basically disqualifying himself from the entire match, because of one target not engaged.

IPSC has recognized that the DNF is no longer necessary and a more fair solution to the scoring problem is possible. I suggest we follow suit. With modern timers, it is possible to record an accurate time from the start of the stage to the last shot fired. In the case of a broken gun, I would suggest we record time and add all penalties and record the resultant score. If the gun broke near the beginning of the stage, the score with all of the miss penalties would result in a slow time, but at least there would be a time recorded.

User avatar
todd
Site Admin
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:11 am
What number appears twice below: 0
Location: Miami Beach, Florida USA
Contact:

Post by todd » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:18 pm

Good points Garrett. I agree giving a 0 time is a bad thing. Let me clafify my understanding of DNF.

We practice DNF as highest time on that stage by all competitors + 30 seconds. I think this can work for or against the shooter. If everyone has a great run on that stage they can in fact recover the time if it is a large match. If they were to take all the penalities and they just started a stage with 50 targets and got +10 seconds for the 40 targets they did not engage it is going to be devistating.

Perhaps the solution could be the lesser of

High stage time + 30secs
OR
Competitor run time + penalties

I might also stipulate that a competitor can only take the lesser of the two on one stage in any event. In my mind it would be unfair for a competitor who DNF on 2 stages to beat someone who had high times in the same stages but completed. Any thoughts?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests