No shoot steel - to fall or not to fall

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.

Should a no shoot steel have to fall from a hit to count against the shooter?

Yes
2
29%
No
5
71%
 
Total votes: 7

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todd
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No shoot steel - to fall or not to fall

Post by todd » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:16 am

The debate is come up on if a hit on a no shoot pepper popper should count even if the popper does not fall over.

The logic with falling steel is that it must fall and have a registered hit on the plate face. Since poppers set screws can sometimes wiggle loose and make the poppers harder to fall over and the fact that almost any shot to the bottom few inches of a popper will not knock it down. Do we say "a valid hit to a no shoot popper counts even if the popper does not fall over?"

What do you think?
Last edited by todd on Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

StealthyBlagga
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Post by StealthyBlagga » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:51 am

Falling NS targets should always have to fall to count. If the adjustment screw "wriggles loose" then that's range equipment failure and is grounds for a reshoot. Its down to the match organizers/ROs to ensure the stage is built and maintained properly.

While we're on the subject of poppers, guidelines for calibrating poppers would be helpful. This will allow the ROs to confirm beforehand that each popper will fall when hit, and gives a procedure to test any contested popper. IPSC rules specify a procedure using a 9mm handgun fired from the location the shooter engaged the target. The shot must hit the "calibration zone" disc in the center of the target, and the target must fall with the first hit.

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Post by SubGunFan » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:14 pm

.

If a falling steel SHOOT target must fall to score, then a falling steel NO-SHOOT target must also fall to get penalized....


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Post by todd » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:31 pm

SubGunFan wrote:.

If a falling steel SHOOT target must fall to score, then a falling steel NO-SHOOT target must also fall to get penalized....


.
I agree with that logic 100%. This will be a tough spot for some competitors when they see the next guy nail a red no shoot plate and it spins instead of falling or a popper has a visible hit but does not fall. I guess the whole point of having things that can fall is to make them fall :D. This will have to be in bold in the rules so when the "whine and cheese festival" starts up it can be pointed out.

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Post by SubGunFan » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:16 pm

.

I would also like to add.... That no-shoot POPPERS should be set very light. That way an edge hit might take down the popper.

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Paul Winters
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Post by Paul Winters » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:27 am

Well..... OK, for no-shoot plates if we follow that what defines a shoot plate as defeated is considered for a no-shoot plate (fallen or turned) with the inclusion that that is has at least 1/2 a bullet stike, that seems to be workablle.

Poppers....Let's talk. A no-shoot target is a target that you are not supposed to shoot, period. If the popper is calibrated for a 9mm strike on the lower circle area of the popper then we would really be saying that a strike lower than that circle whould not necessarily knock it down. So we are allowing a shooter to shoot at 1/2 the target length without any concequenses unless the target falls?

Let me address my recomendation for scoring a no-shoot popper as a penalty whether it falls or not in a little more detail. As a stage designer I use no-shoot poppers in many different ways;

1.) As a no-shoot target among an array of shoot targets. What is the purpose of this? A no-shoot target adds challenges to an array and is a psychological anti bullet magnet for any target near it. Shooters tend to focus on this red thing as something that might be too scarry to get near. They therefore will try so hard to not shoot the no-shoot that they have trouble hitting the target they want to. This could be a chapter in itself. If this no-shoot gets smacked with a lead one, it should cost the shooter whether it falls or not. That is what it is there for.

2.) As a deliniator between strings. This type of popper is still a no-shoot, but is there to guide the shooter in string selection. It is ussually set hard so it won't fall in the wind and since it really isn't there to be shot and by design shouldn't be shot, yet invariably it may get shot. This should cost the shooter, whether it falls or not.

3.) As a true hard cover. It is there to protect something on the range. A pulley, a target stand, some soft mechanism that will fry the stage if it gets destroyed. This popper should be set to it will not fall and expose that which it is protecting. If this popper gets a hit, it should cost the shooter and hopefully not fall..ever.

I personally think shoot poppers can and should, on the discression of the match designer, be set hard.. So hard in fact that it may actually take a burst of...what are those things we shoot with..... oh, yeah, full auto subguns to knock them down. The main issue is consistancy between shooters.

Just some thoughts.

Paul : -)#


At the last creek I set the poppers light since, as an attempt to deflect splatter away from the crown, I had the face angle of the poppers shifted about 10 degrees away from the crowd. I wan't sure how the deflected bullet energy whould transfer to the metal poppers. This made the poppers, in my opinion a little too light, but not having poppers at home, I had to be sure the match adjustment would work OK. I constantly struggle to set up a course that puts advantage to full auto fire without regulating it.

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Post by todd » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:46 am

Your divisions of the purpose of no-shoots is great, very well said Paul. I think that is the best argument to date in either direction. I couldn't articulate it as well as you did but you pretty much summed up what I was feeling when I voted no on the poll. I am sure this debate will rage on for a while however...

I think we also need to take history into consideration as well as to what works and what does not. Knob Creek is without a doubt the longest running, largest, and most successful subgun match to date. It also may have the distinction of having the widest skill range of it's competitors of any match. If something works across the board there it needs to be taken into consideration as a viable option.
. I constantly struggle to set up a course that puts advantage to full auto fire without regulating it.
An entire discussion unto itself for sure. I look forward to that discussion.

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Post by L34A1 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:37 am

My .02 is if you hit a no shoot it is a penilty, whether is falls or not. They should be painted red and if there is a bullet strike anywhere in the red it should count. Otherwise lets call them something else like POSSIBLE NO- SHOOTS. Paper no shoots do not fall and speaking from experience, Garrett took 1st place away from me in April at the KCR OB Optics because I nicked a no-shoot. Should I have challenged the half moon mark, or do I suck it up and say to myself "I am better than that and I should not have come so close."

Yep, today we have a COF with possible no shoots. (and the crowd looks at you and thinks) What? and now we explain.

Again my opinion. :D
"People always equate success with the weapons themselves rather than with training and individual initiative, which are really the bottom line"

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Post by SubGunFan » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:06 pm

.

First, this thread is not about PAPER no-shoots. I agree that a hit on the perimeter scoring line of a paper no-shoot counts as a penalty.

If it is determined that any direct bullet hit on a steel no-shoot counts as a penalty, then I hope the ROs and especially my fellow squad members don't mind that right before I shoot, I walk the stage examining all the no-shoots carefully for unpainted hits.

Like we all agree, even one no-shoot hit in a stage can ruin your score. ROs need to stay on top of repainting no-shoot hits, and shooters need to ensure the stage is set properly for their run.


.

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Post by todd » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:47 pm

SubGunFan wrote:.
If it is determined that any direct bullet hit on a steel no-shoot counts as a penalty, then I hope the ROs and especially my fellow squad members don't mind that right before I shoot, I walk the stage examining all the no-shoots carefully for unpainted hits.
That is your right as a competitor and it was done at KCR by a few people. The procedure we followed when resetting targets @ KCR was to check all no shoots for damage and hits. If hit the target was presented to the shooter (held up to show them the hit) and then painted and replaced. If they wanted to see the target up close they were allowed to.

I liked the way the order of responsiblity was set up at this past KCR match. They had one person responsible for the target integrity and people resetting. He or she had to verify all targets were positioned correctly and without defect and also that everyone resetting was off the range before the OK was given to allow the next shooter to the line.

It flowed pretty smoothly and to my knowledge nobody had to reshoot due to a target malfunction due to human error.

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Post by L34A1 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:23 pm

SubGunFan wrote:.

First, this thread is not about PAPER no-shoots. I agree that a hit on the perimeter scoring line of a paper no-shoot counts as a penalty.

If it is determined that any direct bullet hit on a steel no-shoot counts as a penalty, then I hope the ROs and especially my fellow squad members don't mind that right before I shoot, I walk the stage examining all the no-shoots carefully for unpainted hits.

Like we all agree, even one no-shoot hit in a stage can ruin your score. ROs need to stay on top of repainting no-shoot hits, and shooters need to ensure the stage is set properly for their run.


.
Your right, it is about whether a popper should fall in order to get the 20sec.

I have not shot to many SMG matches outside KCR and Palm Bay and it is my experience that leads me to believe that however you hit a no shoot it counts unless outside the dotted line on a paper target.
"People always equate success with the weapons themselves rather than with training and individual initiative, which are really the bottom line"

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Post by Icer » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:14 pm

Paul Winters wrote: 3.) As a true hard cover. It is there to protect something on the range. A pulley, a target stand, some soft mechanism that will fry the stage if it gets destroyed. This popper should be set to it will not fall and expose that which it is protecting. If this popper gets a hit, it should cost the shooter and hopefully not fall..ever.
Just trying to clarify............would the shooter receive a time penalty for shooting a black hard cover target or are time penalties reserved for red no-shoot targets?

---Icer

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Post by Paul Winters » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:36 pm

Icer,

Pardon my use of the word hard cover. This popper is painted red and is a no-shoot target. Any other color would confuse the shooter as what they should not shoot. It is hard cover in that it is a thick piece of steel that will not allow a bullet to penetrate. This is a literal hard cover. Thanks for helping clarify.

Paul : -)#

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Post by StealthyBlagga » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:11 am

L34A1 wrote:... it is my experience that leads me to believe that however you hit a no shoot it counts unless outside the dotted line on a paper target.
This is really a question of internal consistency:

IPSC-style paper targets are scored as "hit" or "not hit" based on whether the bullet hole touches the outer perforation. If a shot clips the edge of the target but does not break the perf, it does not score. This is true for both "shoot" or "no shoot" paper targets. Do we argee that this is the most common practice, is internally consistent, and is honest and clear to the shooter and RO ?

Why would we want to treat falling Pepper Popper targets differently ? In the case of "shoot" Pepper Poppers, we only score the hit if the competitor knocks down the target by gunfire; if he hits it but it does not fall, then the target is scored as being missed and the shooter incurs a penalty. It seems inconsistent, then, to score "no shoot" Pepper Poppers as being hit when they don't fall.

For me, this is not a matter of intent, or "what the target represents" (after all, its only a game), but rather of making sure we are logical and consistent in our rules. The more illogical "special exceptions" we put in the rules, the more confusing the rulebook will be - especially for a newcomer or visitor from another practical shooting discipline.

I also keep coming back to the practicalities of running a match where the RO has to make judgements about whether a certain mark on a given target constitutes a bullet hit or not, where each competitor has to check each steel to ensure it is painted out before their run, and where any unpainted target is a reshoot waiting to happen.

Whatever the argument in principle, it seems like the simplest and most consistent approach would be to only score "no shoot" Poppers if they fall. Just my 2 cents worth.

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Post by Paul Winters » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:21 am

StealthyBlagga,

In understand completely what you are saying. Try not to thing of popper vs no-shoot popper. Think of the no-shoot popper as a no-shoot paper. Imagine what whould happen to that no-shoot paper amongst steel. It would be shredded by splatter. A steel no-shoot serves the same as no-shoot paper. One hit and it counts.

Consistancy is always the objective for any match. A cut on the outer edge of a perf or the outer edge of paper itself, for me is fine, as long as it is administerred evenly and I know about how it will be scored before I shoot. I prefer it be on the perf, but it isn't my place at this time to tell a club how to play. I can and will suggest, when I am able and offer advice. Until there is a more formal organization, even the rule we are discussing are more to be accepted by other clubs, by choice. First we must crawl...

Paul : -)#

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