No shoot steel - to fall or not to fall

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.

Should a no shoot steel have to fall from a hit to count against the shooter?

Yes
2
29%
No
5
71%
 
Total votes: 7

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todd
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Post by todd » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:57 pm

Has anyone had a change of heart on this vote in either direction? I have to change my vote to NO from yes making it 3 - 3.

After much thought I think consistency is key as several people stated, however I feel the consistency we need is to enforce a no-shoot is a no shoot is a no shoot. You hit it you own it. The best way I can explain it in my mind is that....

A no shoot is a specific type of target. Regardless of the state of the target whether it is moving, falling, stationary or otherwise if it is hit it counts against the shooter.

I think that is a consistent rule we can follow and it removes all ambiguity from the scoring process.

On that same note what constitutes a bullet hit on steel? Half a hit? Any arc such quarter circle or more... How do we make the RO's job as simple as possible and remove the possibility of an argument before it even happens?

So to take the debate further what is our best solution to score no-shoot paper?

Does anyone have a view in either direction for hits on paper? For scoring sake do we say any hit on the target counts? Do we say inside the perforation or touching....? How do other people score it? IDPA, IPSC etc?

Paul Winters
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Post by Paul Winters » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:14 am

For IPCS on paper a perf mark is scored as a hit. In scoring, this has been translated into a gray pencil like mark on the perf as a hit. This, and overlapped rounds on paper is the resaon for an overlay template. I prefer a cut or tear that both RO can clearly discern as a cut or tear. If I have to play overlay games, it isn't that clear, in my opinion.

On steel, as an RO, I need to be 100% sure it is a hit and not splatter,. At the Creek, I use 1/2 a bullet strike as a determination of a hit on a no-shoot. The ark of the bullet radius is relativley clear. I can also from this tell a strike from splatter and the shooter can see it as it is. Whatever we settle on, doesn't matter as long as it keeps debates from slowing a course down with what is and isn't. Just my 2 cents.

Paul : -)#

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Post by SubGunFan » Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:59 am

.

Paper target hits should score ONLY when the hits touch a scoring area. Hits outside the border line/perf should not count.

.

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Post by SubGunFan » Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:29 am

.

Assuming we now agree that "dead is dead" when it comes to all no-shoot targets, I am changing my vote to steel no-shoots do NOT have to fall to count.

I think this concept will benefit the match organizers by allowing the steel no-shoots to be set heavy and not worry about being "calibrated". We IPSC shooters know that popper calibration can be a pain in the ass.

I hope that steel shoot target calibration doesn't become an issue in the future. Heavy set shoot targets have their purpose.......

.

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Post by todd » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:42 pm

I'm sure Paul Winters is going to cringe as he looks at this picture but he nailed this by the slightest of margins @ ISSMC 2007 and I thought I'd document it for our debates on here... The target was hit and did fall over and I have to admit I was cracking up when he said

"isn't there a half a bullet rule on these things.. that's less than half a bullet"

In the end he got the +10 seconds and laughed about it. He didn't make the same mistake when he ran the stage with the Thompson and got himself the 1st place trophy.
Attachments
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Half a bullet eh?
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Paul Winters
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Post by Paul Winters » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:23 pm

Thanks Todd. I knew that plate would haunt me : -)#

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Post by todd » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:33 pm

heheh :lol: I'm a bit amazed you hit it at all, I thought you were aiming low.

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Post by Paul Winters » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:48 pm

Must of been a bent bullet...or a stray shot from the bushy knoll : -)#

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