Why BLACK and not WHITE...?

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
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SubGunFan
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Why BLACK and not WHITE...?

Post by SubGunFan » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:26 pm

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Why are steel shoot targets painted black and not white...?

Wouldn't iron sights and dot optics show up better looking at white targets?

I am not trying to change things, I am just curious about this current practice......

PS: I think RED steel no-shoots are a good choice.

.

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todd
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Post by todd » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:31 pm

We paint shoot targets any color except red. We reserve red for stop plates and no shoots. Where did you see that shoot were only painted black?

SubGunFan
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Post by SubGunFan » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:57 pm

.

2006 ISSMC (an all steel match since one stage was never shot) and pics from the CRC (TN) local matches. Also, weren't all the steel shoot targets at the 2005 UZITalk Shoot painted black....? Wait, sorry, the poppers were white...... duh.

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Post by Icer » Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:58 pm

Todd---

Has any attempt been made to reach consensus on appropriate target colors for the forthcoming rulebook?

It seems everyone agrees that red would be the appropriate color for no-shoots.

Will white or black be the appropriate color for shoot targets? Would it be better to have black steel be designated as hard cover/no penalty targets? Black has traditionally been used to signify hard cover on paper targets.

I've always prefered white targets simply because they stand out from most backgrounds and the front sight and red dot really contrast well. But would some people find it confusing to have white paper no-shoots on the same stage as white steel shoot targets?

Also white and black spray paint tend to be cheap and easy to find.

---Icer

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Post by StealthyBlagga » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:21 am

The only gun I shoot with an optic is my subgun. I shoot Limited Iron division in 3-gun compatition (iron sights on pistol, shotgun and rifle). Myself, I find white shoot targets to be significantly easier to shoot because they contrast better with iron sights. Of course, whatever color we use, it will be the same for all shooters, but I think white is fairer, particularly to the old timers trying to use iron sights with tired eyes.

What I do want is CONSISTENCY. I hate when matches mix up too many target types; one stage you shoot the white steels, the next they are just hard cover, then next they are no-shoots... this is just confusing and invites inadvertantly shooting the wrong target. And before someone says that this "promotes mental agility" or somesuch rubbish, this is a SHOOTING competition, not a memory test :roll: .

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Post by todd » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:45 pm

Hi Guys,

I am back from yet another successful SMG match sorry I couldn't reply but I was setting up stages yesterday with L34A1. More to come on that in a little bit.

As far as colors go we reserve red for stop plates and no shoots MOST of the time. However on stages with no no shoots and no stop plates we sometimes use it to add color.

I would not begin to dictate what colors a coordinator could or could not use but I think if we suggest red be reserved for stop plates and no shoots then the other colors are fair game for everything else. I might be alone on this but I think multiple colors are needed to be use for shoot targets because as I proved today not everybody sees every color the same and by mixing them up it forces the shooter to be on top of his or her game. I ignored a yellow target today which was RIGHT in front of me . The fact that I created the stage and I put that @#$% target out there didin't help things either.

My mind wasn't where it should have been and I ran by it.. so be it. That is my fault for not being more aware although I would have seen it if it were a bright orange or similar compared to the yellow in the shade against a light sandy backstop.

I understand the white shoot issue and although I would like to have them all white for the same reason I think we'll end up like Orwells 1984 with some pretty crappy looking stages with them all being white. We do use white no shoot / brown shoot for paper targets however we are trying to get away from that by making them all the same color and simply pasting on images of weapons to the shoots .

In my mind hard cover on paper should always be black paint so there is no confusion but it really doesn't matter. If we are trained to recognize a solid color of any color in a block on a paper target as hard cover it we should all react the same.

We did a texas star in retarded colors today. It was blue and gold and we spray painted a swirly thing in the center... it about made you sick looking at it. I'll post the videos this week of the todays shoot.

If you have a 8 stage match you'd be sick of looking at white targets by stage #3. Paul is the man with the art skills in the house... I wonder how he feels about the subject.

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Post by Paul Winters » Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:02 am

Personally I like a lot of colors, but for various reasons. On a tight stage colors are very usefull for designating a string of targets to help a shooter not stray off the array. From experience some colors are better than others depending on the background and lighting. At the last Creek we used white for the starting, center, and ending array, yellow for the second array, and blue for the fourth array. In debrief, at the end of the match, it was decided that Wal-Mart blue was not the best color in hindsight for this match. The reason was the shadow effect of the range and the dark color of the blue. When both the shooter and the target were both in the shade or in the sun, the targets stood out. When the shooter was in the sun and the targets in the shade, the blue was not as crisp. We discussed maybe substituting a grey instead of blue the next time.

I love props and I love color. It get's shooters excited and is a real crowd pleaser. The fewer reserved colors the better. At the Creek the KPDL group that holds the pistol match, will on occasion, do things that throw an IPSC shooter off because they are not as rigid in target or color. Flash a white target up at an IPSC shooter on a suprise stage and he/she will hesitate at first, because that is the way they train. (L341A, I bet you could say a lot about this in your training discussion).
As long as we set red for no-shoots and RO's, I don't know what else needs to be reserved. As far as iron sights, I use sight paint (predator blood green is what I call it) but black on black isn't that hard I don't think. Optical shooters sometimes will be presented with a shade of orange that can hide the dot. As a stage designer, I will try and make a good safe fun course of fire, but that doesn't mean that I cannot make the shooter think about how to best proceed through it or how to work around a color his/her sights don't like. I am a gamer (unreformed) and I like building a stage that is a puzzle to be solved. Anyway, it is a goal. Colors... definately are a part of that.

Paul : -)#

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Post by L34A1 » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:31 am

Paul Winters wrote: In debrief, at the end of the match, it was decided that Wal-Mart blue was not the best color in hindsight for this match. The reason was the shadow effect of the range and the dark color of the blue. When both the shooter and the target were both in the shade or in the sun, the targets stood out. When the shooter was in the sun and the targets in the shade, the blue was not as crisp. Flash a white target up at an IPSC shooter on a suprise stage and he/she will hesitate at first, because that is the way they train. (L341A, I bet you could say a lot about this in your training discussion).
As long as we set red for no-shoots and RO's, I don't know what else needs to be reserved. As far as iron sights, I use sight paint (predator blood green is what I call it) but black on black isn't that hard I don't think. Optical shooters sometimes will be presented with a shade of orange that can hide the dot. As a stage designer, I will try and make a good safe fun course of fire, but that doesn't mean that I cannot make the shooter think about how to best proceed through it or how to work around a color his/her sights don't like. I am a gamer (unreformed) and I like building a stage that is a puzzle to be solved. Anyway, it is a goal. Colors... definately are a part of that.

Paul : -)#

I thought the BLUE targets added challenge. :D and I missed one, which was my fault, and after that run at KCR my wife replied "you forgot to scan your stage" and it shows on the video. What a great shoot we had yesterday and working with Todd is a real treat. We set up 4 C'sOF that out of 28 shooters not one complaint. Todd, I think the enthusiasm was on the high side yesterday. :D The color issue, red for no-shoots and when used as a stop plate no red no shoots will be used in that stage. I can go either way on the WHITE colors. If we did all the same colors on paper (whatever color they were) and put objects in their hands to distinguish between shoot and no- shoot (ten finger palms up) we would have complaints because of the "its too hard factor" (which I like). I personally would like to see the shooter think about what he or she is doing and not get into the automatic mindset. The RED X on the paper is a good way to go and if there is no RED X it is fair game. Many of us have the AUTOMATIC mindset that white papers are no shoots. As long as the COF outlines the stage designers thoughts and how it is supposed to be shot it should be allowed. This will require thinking on the shooters part. Remember, we should not be so restricted to what OTHER shooting organizations are doing that we will not have a mind or our own. SMG matches MUST be different. My opinion.
"People always equate success with the weapons themselves rather than with training and individual initiative, which are really the bottom line"

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Re: Why BLACK and not WHITE...?

Post by Hot Lead Zapper » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:09 pm

The reason that hostile steel targets were painted black from the beginning of time and for so many years in all types of competitive matches was, because when a projectile hits a black metal target, the lead splatter would show up the best. The shooter could actually see the hit on the steel target easier compared to all other colors.

Lead splatters take about 5 seconds to oxidize and then it turns into a darker dull gray tint. Until that happens, lead splatters appear bright silver in color, and on a black background, will give the best contrast for the shooter and RO to see.

White painted metal targets offer the next best option, but with the 5 second rule of physics, target acquisition hits by sight can and will be slower and more difficult to recognize within the first 5 seconds.

When it comes to all the other colors of paint, the darkness of shade should be based on light conditions.

There are 2 colors I personally like to use for hanging metal plate targets. Gold and silver, because when the target is hit it will rock back and forward giving the shooter and RO a multiple mirror flash effect from the available light. This also works on drop plates especially if they spin or flip in the air, and on hinged plates and pepper poppers as they fall back. Depending on your background, gold and silver can be difficult to see, so you can paint your post holding the target a bright color for visibility. Gold and silver paint also will take less to cover and last longer.

In the 90's during the Clinton anti-gun dynasty, liberal media attacked many ranges for painting hostile metal targets black and hostage metal targets white, based on lies of racial theories. This is why there are so many different colors at all types of matches and ranges now. If the brown side of a IPSC paper target where not a natural cardboard brown and was made in a darker shade on purpose, the crap would hit the fan all over again.

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