The failures of modern tactical SMG competition

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
Ulwembu
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Re: The failures of modern tactical SMG competition

Post by Ulwembu » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:21 pm

Can't argue with that but that is of course to the shooter. What do they want in a magazine? And why do they want it? In my case, I would rather use 30 round magazines as I can carry these more easily and grab them more easily out of my puches then the long stick mags. My feeling is that grabbing and placing a long 50-60 rounder takes as long as switching 2 30 round mags when the first one is empty.

And that's the beauty of this sport: anybody can use what they like best, even if it doesn't really work for them.


Let me clarify this by some pictures. First of all: I'm from the Netherlands and have to rely on others to let me shoot with their guns and thus their magazines. I'm gratefull that they let me and I won't complain about the set ups they use. What I'm about to say is what my preference would be. Nothing else.

In this picture you can clearly see the set up I prefer: 9 32 round mags on my belt. If I need a tenth I can place it in the gun when I start or still put it in a back pocket as my first magazine. The pouches clamp the mags so they don't fall out and locating a mag is easy by just following the edge of my belt/pants.

Image

Now compare it to this set up. Long 50 round mags in long leg pouches. The weight on the legs slows you down and the long magazines need to be pulled out. More difficult to grab, more difficult to be turned around. And a lot more heavy when in the gun.

Image

OK, I'm not a really fast runner due to my hips and knees but in these two video's you can clearly see the difference on what I mean about weight when leaving the starting position (not to mention the risk of loosing the mags out of the leg pouches due to a lot more movement).

My UZI run. 9 30 round mags in belt pouches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MibriGHD8vU

My Thompson run. Magazines in long leg pouches. Obviously, the 50 rounders filled with .45's did their job weight wise but also wanted to proof that these mags are without malfunctions (the malfunctions that you see were a few rounds with the primers upside down in them :oops: ).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHKToIjfCxE

So, what I'm trying to say: to each their own. If someone thinks their set up works for him, then why argue. On the Thompson, I like the 50 round mags. They work, they're just a pain to run with ;)

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L34A1
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Re: The failures of modern tactical SMG competition

Post by L34A1 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:29 pm

Nice UZI! :D
"People always equate success with the weapons themselves rather than with training and individual initiative, which are really the bottom line"

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todd
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Re: The failures of modern tactical SMG competition

Post by todd » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:48 pm

Ulwembu , what in the hell do you have in your back pockets? Was 2000 magazines not enough, it looks like you have two wallets too :p

AndrewA
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Re: The failures of modern tactical SMG competition

Post by AndrewA » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:49 pm

Yep, that was my fat butt scoring you when you ran out of ammo with the Uzi. Do you remember me asking you if you had enough mags?
After watching you, I loaded up a couple more of mine so I wouldn't run out!! :lol:

Ulwembu
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Re: The failures of modern tactical SMG competition

Post by Ulwembu » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:57 am

todd wrote:Ulwembu , what in the hell do you have in your back pockets? Was 2000 magazines not enough, it looks like you have two wallets too :p
That was for trying to bribe my way through if I would run out :mrgreen:
Wallet and my paperwork (passport, gunlicense, etc.)
L34A1 wrote:Nice UZI! :D
Hehe, thanks again Andy ;) I loved it!
AndrewA wrote:Yep, that was my fat butt scoring you when you ran out of ammo with the Uzi. Do you remember me asking you if you had enough mags?
After watching you, I loaded up a couple more of mine so I wouldn't run out!! :lol:
I shot 273 rounds in that run... Way too much and still 27 rounds left in mags on the ground (I loaded only 30 per Mag just in case I would forget to open the bolt before loading another mag in it). Oh well, it was great fun!

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Garrett
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Re: The failures of modern tactical SMG competition

Post by Garrett » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:08 pm

Wow. Where to begin.

I’ve read similar discussions a number of times. It consists of someone getting on a soap box, ranting for a bit about what we are doing wrong and how lame we are because of it, and then going away. This guy goes even farther by basically saying that the people who are actually out there making the effort to put on competitions don’t know anything (or maybe know “too much”). My response to people like the OP is to either put up or shut up. I know how much effort goes into putting on a club-level match. Bigger matches are much more involved. It’s easy to sit behind a keyboard and tell the people who are actually doing these things what they should be doing differently. If you don’t like what is currently being offered, put on your own match and show us how it’s done.

Paul was very eloquent in his responses to the OP’s perceived “problems” with our sport. And his responses were apparently ignored, as the OP apparently hasn’t bothered to respond in the 4-1/2 years since he posted. Maybe because the issues Paul brought up made sense, or would have required actual thought to respond to. In a competition, you need to be consistent. If you have rules that are not easily defined, you get back to the interpretation of the individual RO, and individual interpretation is not always consistent (I’m thinking of the “cover” and “moving” issues here, for example).

I participated in several of these types of discussions on various IPSC/USPSA forums back in the late ‘90s and early ‘00s. The sport at that time was divided into two groups – the “gamers” and the “martial artists”, for lack of better terms. Both groups envisioned a different direction for the sport. It was more geared toward what the gamers wanted, at that time. And I’ll give credit where it’s due. The martial artists didn’t just gripe about everything that was wrong with the sport. They went out, expended a lot of effort, and organized a different sport. And that sport (IDPA) has become very successful and I applaud them for it.

And in my opinion, IDPA is still a game. Good – bad – indifferent, that’s the reality that I see. And to make a “tactical” subgun match would be no different. At the end of the day, what you are doing is still a game. As soon as you start keeping score, it stops being training and becomes a competition. And competitors will do everything they can – within the established rules – to do the best they can. What is the end goal? With training, it is to improve a given skill set. With competition, it is to get the best score, based on a set of rules. If you want training, take a training class. Take a bunch of classes. There are a several world-class training facilities all over the country that can provide first-rate training on the use of subguns, or any other firearm you might want to get better with. And I guess I’ll remain a “high-drag, low-speed, not-an-operator” gamer. And I’m fine with that :lol:

And there is nothing to say that any given shooter can’t shoot a stage in what they consider to be a “tactical” manner. They may not finish with the best score or the shortest time, but if training is their focus, that shouldn’t matter. Multiple shooters can get multiple things out of the same match. I shoot because it’s something I enjoy doing. That’s why I go to matches.

Back when IDPA was first getting going, I would see magazine articles with titles like “Why IPSC will get you killed!” The premise was that shooting “games” reinforced bad habits. (something that the OP here seems to be eluding to.) Personally, I think people are smarter than that. Shooting in games also teaches you trigger control, proper sight picture, transitioning between multiple targets, and lots of other useful skills. I’m of the opinion that the “gamer” that shoots a match every week is going to be very prepared for a real-life situation.

As for using a subgun in a “realistic” manner, a subgun is not something you are going to have on your person on a daily basis, so it’s not going to be there for a random self-defense situation. A subgun is something that you grab when you know you are going to get involved in a gun fight. I’m not a police officer, or in the military. If I woke up in the morning knowing I was going to a shootout today, I’d roll over and go back to sleep. :wink:

If you want a “realistic” self-defense match, try this one: drive to the range with your carry gun hot and holstered. Exit the car, walk onto the range, draw and fire two shots onto a target 3’ away. And that’s the match. That’s “realistic”. And nobody would come out to shoot that match because it’s boring.

Having 50+ targets on a single stage at KCR is not at all realistic. But due to range layout, host range procedure, and time constraints, it is not feasible to run multiple smaller stages. People travel long distances to shoot the match, and a high round count is desirable. It wouldn’t be much of a match if the whole thing could be shot with a single 20-round mag. “Real-world” it’s not. If you try too hard to make it all things for all people, you end up with something that satisfies nobody.

The problem with making a match “realistic”, or “tactically relevant” and still keep score is that it’s almost impossible to do. We’ve got a local club that shoots a carbine / pistol match every month. They started out with the premise that IDPA wasn’t doing it right, and they were going to fix that with their organization. They were going to be “more tactically correct” than IDPA. And they still do things that don’t seem “tactically sound” to me. For example, the rule that you have to either be behind cover or “moving” when you engage targets. In other words, you can’t stand flat-footed in the open while the targets could presumably shoot back. So you “move” while shooting. In reality, this means you slow-walk while shooting. In the “real world”, slow-walking would not make you any more difficult to hit than standing still. It just doesn’t make any sense. But that’s how the rules were written, and that’s how their game evolved. I still go shoot it sometimes, and conform to the rules. But I’m still there because it’s fun. And because there isn’t a USPSA or subgun match on that particular Saturday.

I’ve shot a wide range of subgun matches. I’ve heard the KCR match from the late ‘90s described as perfect training if you’re ever attacked by a pack of playing cards. In other words, it consisted of a whole bunch of small plates. These could all be taken down with a single hit, and the match was dominated by the single-tap guns. One USPSA shooter told me about how he convinced them to let him run the subgun match with his race-gun (pistol), just as a “fun run”. His time was roughly half of what the match winner did with a subgun. Things have changed at the Creek since those days. There are heavy targets, burst arrays, and other things geared toward “subgun” shooting. I’ve also shot the matches with lots of tight, difficult shots with targets mostly hidden by penalty no-shoot plates. And I’ve shot the wide-open hose-em matches. I’ve seen matches that required un-sighted “shoot from the hip” bursts at targets. And I enjoyed all of them. I recognize the amount of work that went into them and I had a good time shooting them. I wouldn’t say any of them were “bad”, or that I regretted going.

I suppose I’ve ranted long enough now. But if anyone disagrees with my opinions, that’s okay. That’s what we’re here to discuss anyway. And I’ll be around to respond to any comments. :mrgreen:

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Garrett
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Re: The failures of modern tactical SMG competition

Post by Garrett » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:10 pm

AndrewA wrote: If you REALLY wanted to be evil, you could have a 'no dropped mags' rule. All empty mags would be required to be placed back into pouches or pockets during a mag change. You could have a 10-second penalty for every mag not on the shooter's person after the last stage. After all, in 'real' combat, you don't leave mags behind except in extremis.

Another way to introduce a touch of realism is to start the shooter on a stage with an empty weapon and empty mag plus 30 loose rounds. Shooter has to load the mag before starting to fire. Of course, those with Swedish K and C3 loaders would have a huge advantage unless you disallow loaders. But then, what about STEn mags which are almost impossible to load without help?
You could institute such rules. Would a “no dropped mags” rule add value o the match though? (granted, I’m admittedly approaching this from a gamer’s perspective).

On the other issue, you point out that some mags are easier/faster to load than others. To some extent, you have the same issue with the guns though. Some subguns are simply easier to shoot well than others. So there will always be some disparity, unless you have one gun that everyone has to shoot. Do we want the match to be defined by who can load their mags the fastest? Or the one that shoots the best?

At the end of the day, it’s a shooting match, not a mag-loading match, a mag-retention match, a track meet, or anything else. Any non-shooting activity either enhances or detracts from the match. With any proposed rules, I would suggest we consider which category that rule would fall in to.

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Beautifully written !.

Post by NWBuckeye » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:08 pm

Garrett wrote: At the end of the day, it’s a shooting match, not a mag-loading match, a mag-retention match, a track meet, or anything else. Any non-shooting activity either enhances or detracts from the match. With any proposed rules, I would suggest we consider which category that rule would fall in to.
********************
Exactly ! Why don't these Key Board Ninja's put up or SHUT UP!. I know people who would let them use our own firearms to show us all just how it's done, including my own!. How about it fella?. Give me a break. When it comes down to it, he'd probably wet his britches in a fire fight anyways. :lol:

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