Magazine Capacity Restrictions

The final word on what flys and what doesn't in competition. What do you think we need to do to make each and every match fair and safe for all shooters.
sillycon
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by sillycon » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:00 pm

I have to say, I find it rather entertaining that the two guys with the high ROF bullet hoses are the ones that seem to be the least interested in seeing a mag-caps be imposed. :mrgreen:

Maybe it's just the drag racer in me, but I definitely like the idea of 'run what you brung' -- even if I'm the guy running the less competitive car/gun.

I sort of see mag limits like the "no selector switch" rule though -- if the gun has it, why not allow it?

I guess I just don't "get" how a mag restriction is supposed help level the playing field; all I can see it doing is making it more uneven than it already is. *shrug*

I think manditory mag changes are a much more effective way of leveling the field as that is ROF independant.
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by todd » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:01 am

beating-a-dead-horse.gif
beating-a-dead-horse.gif (17.63 KiB) Viewed 10532 times
Imagine you have a mp5 with 30 round magazines

Imagine I have a mp5 with a 100 round drum

Imagine the only stage has 4 shooting positions with 20 targets each.

Imagine you being a better shot than me but we are equal in all other regards such as speed and movement from target to target

Imagine me having to reshoot a half dozen targets and you shooting 1 for 1 on each target

Imagine me beating you by 2 seconds

Imagine me shaking your hand on a well shot 2nd place.

Imagine me going out to eat with the $200 I won for 1st place because you changed mags 3 times and I changed zero times and I even had to reshoot 6 targets.

Imagine my trophy is the size of your car and is filled with fruit loops and you get $50 and a pink ribbon with a goat being kicked in the ass on it for 2nd place.


I imagine now you might just get it.

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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by Paul Winters » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:58 am

And here I thought this was becoming an old thread. Gimme a minute to get the popcorn. : -)#

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medphys
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by medphys » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:25 am

Just so people don't think I posted this to stir the pot and sit back and watch, here are my thoughts after thinking about it for a while and reading everyone's post:


1. I don't believe that magazine capacity is a determining factor on who wins a subgun match (yet).

2. I believe match organizers are smart enough to know when magazine capacity could be a determining factor and should take action to prevent it from becoming an issue.

:) Peace :)

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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by todd » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:06 am

I love these discussions.... :) Good thread.. I'm looking forward to digging it up in a year or two and seeing if any of us have changed our minds.

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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by medphys » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:42 am

todd wrote:I love these discussions.... :) Good thread...
Me too... wait until I propose a new classification system :lol: (just kidding)

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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by sillycon » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:32 pm

Todd, that just means I was under-gunned and should have brought a 100rd mag as well.

Although, knowing myself, I'd be likely to custom fab a 150rd drum before the next match just to make sure you didn't beat me again. I ran what I had and lost; just means it's time to step up my game!

I figure that there's always going to be someone faster/better. It's just the nature of competition.

In all seriousness though, how would your above scenario not be "corrected" or "balanced" by mandatory mag changes?

I understand there's a disconnect between the guy with the Thompson and a 100rd drum and the .45 ACP uzi guy with 16rd sticks -- I just don't see the best solution being a capacity limit (for a huge variety of reasons); it seems to me that minimum mag-change requirements make more sense (and would be easier to enforce).
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by todd » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:55 pm

sillycon wrote:Todd, that just means I was under-gunned and should have brought a 100rd mag as well.

Although, knowing myself, I'd be likely to custom fab a 150rd drum before the next match just to make sure you didn't beat me again. I ran what I had and lost; just means it's time to step up my game!

I figure that there's always going to be someone faster/better. It's just the nature of competition.

In all seriousness though, how would your above scenario not be "corrected" or "balanced" by mandatory mag changes?

I understand there's a disconnect between the guy with the Thompson and a 100rd drum and the .45 ACP uzi guy with 16rd sticks -- I just don't see the best solution being a capacity limit (for a huge variety of reasons); it seems to me that minimum mag-change requirements make more sense (and would be easier to enforce).
6 of one a half dozen of the other. The 30 round limit does a similar thing as the drum neutral rules like at KCR.

The kicker to the whole argument is that thus far the guy with 30 round stick mags seems to be the winner 9/10 times. Across all guns and competitions... we'll see if that holds true with the Max-31 being out but time will tell..

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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by sillycon » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:42 am

I'll have my Max-31 in a week or so. Too bad my M11/9 won't be here until August.

Maybe macaholic will let me try it on one of his lowers.

Teehee.

:mrgreen:

Hey, btw- speaking of match winners -- when are the Feb match results going to get posted?
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by mp40gunner » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:45 am

For my .02 I like the drum neutral rule at KCR as I think it levels the field to shooter skill. At ISSMC there were never any mag limits in Open, but there were limits in stock & C&R. We did this so all shooter in a class were equal on the mag capacity. If you wanted sights, betas, etc. you entered the anything goes Open class. Seemed to work out well. I would also agree with Paul in that I don't think any serious shooter would compromise his reputation to cheat and put a few more rounds in the mag. The price to his rep would not be worth the cost.

I think all weapons are a little different. Example getting a loaded Tommy drum in and out is not quite as easy to do as a beta going straight up into an Uzi. My buddy Tim always used my M1 in competition over is 1921 for that very reason. Of course having said that, I short load all my 32rd Uzi mags to 28-29 rounds anyway because they just seem to be more reliable so I am going in without even the allowed 30 in the mag.

I also think everybody approaches it slightly different. At Michigan last year, I don't think I ever carried more than 3 mags in any stage. My thougths were that Todd and other top shooters wouldn't be carrying more, so if I wanted to stay with them I didn't need more weighing me down. Since I finished 2nd to Todd not sure if that worked out well or not LOL. Maybe this year will be better or it could be worse.

To close, I think skill can make up for equipment, but skill being equal between (2) shooters and one have a Lage with a drum, my money is on the guy with more in the mag on most courses that I have shot. Just my .02
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by Garrett » Wed May 02, 2012 6:40 am

I think there is more to the issue than just mag capacity.  To my mind, the single biggest factor is always going to be stage layout.  Do you have a 60-target stand-and-shoot stage with no movement?  If so, the stick mag guy is going to loose time to the drum guy every time he reloads.  On the other hand, if you have a 60-round field course with three shooting positions and enough distance between position to load on the move, it's going to be a pretty level playing field.   

Of course, just as quick as I write that, I can come up with an example refuting it.  The match in Manton, MI this past weekend had a stage with around 50-some targets. It was all shot from one position with no movement between arrays. The first and second place winners both shot a MAX-11, and I don't believe either of them used a drum.  It wasn't until 3rd place that a drum was used (Uzi Beta mag). 
 
The course designer has the most influence on whether or not a stage is going to give an advantage to the drum shooters.  For the past few years it seems everyone has been getting away from drums.  Or rather, trying to become as "magazine neutral" as possible, whether through mag capacity restrictions, or mandatory reloads.  With the proliferation of the MAX-31 and AMP uppers, I wouldn't be surprised to see the pendulum start swinging back the other way, at least to some extent.  After all, people are buying these uppers - eventually, some of them are going to want a venue to use them to their full potential.

To be honest, I prefer the idea of an "anything goes" division.  As mentioned earlier, ISSMC had almost no restrictions on Open Division, but put restrictions on the other divisions.  That's not a bad approach.  You could possibly do that at KCR, requiring mag changes for the Iron Sight divisions, but not for the Optics, for example.  That would give someone with a MAX-31 a place to get the full benefit of the upper, but still give a "traditional" subgunner a venue to shoot without the argument that "those guys" only win because of their drums.  OTOH, you can split it up into so many divisions that everyone goes home with a blue ribbon, but it no longer has any valid meaning.   

I suppose given the choice, I would lean toward less restrictions.  If you set up a stage where you have 20 to 25 shots required per shooting array and a chance to reload on the move, the top guys are going to do about the same whether they are running a drum or stick mags. 

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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by klyph12 » Wed May 02, 2012 9:40 am

I agree with Garrett

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medphys
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by medphys » Wed May 02, 2012 11:15 am

Well said, Garrett.

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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by mp40gunner » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:12 am

After watching the last few KCR matches there is little doubt in my mind that the Lage system and quick change drums are a game changer. Like Garrett said the stage layout has a lot to do with it but top shooters with Richard's equipment have definitely changed the game. From an ugly duckling subgun to a full out race gun is impressive.

Without a doubt the shooter still needs to do his part, but the quick change drum ability sure can't hurt. Those drums are so much quicker to change that a Tommy drum ever was and much cheaper and easier to find.

Just think when I got rid of my M10 (14) years ago, the accessory list was a suppressor LOL.

I liked the way we did the classes at ISSMC and I like the simple way Michigan does it. All the times I've shot at Red Brush I still don't understand the weight system they used to use.

I think horse needs beat just a little more LOL.
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Re: Magazine Capacity Restrictions

Post by medphys » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:52 pm

How about a 300 round limit?

10 30 round mags
9 32 round mags
8 36 round mags
6 50 round mags
4 71 round drums

+ whatever it takes to get to 300.

That would be interesting ;)

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